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mindpunisher
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I never cease to be surprised on this forum. If you are a stage hypnotist then everything associated with the task of doing stage hypnosis is your responsabity. If you invite members of the public to take part then there are risks involved. All of which come under the activity of doing stage hypnosis.

You can't pick and choose which ones are part of hypnosis and ones that aren't. Its absurd. Its like saying it wasn't the gun that killed him your honour it was the bullet.

Absolutely crazy.
mindpunisher
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Here is a link to a report on dangers of hypnosis.

I don't agree with all of it And much of it may not be my point of view but there are some references and info that's worth looking at.

http://tinyurl.com/3y938sd
kissdadookie
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Quote:
On 2010-09-29 05:43, mindpunisher wrote:
I never cease to be surprised on this forum. If you are a stage hypnotist then everything associated with the task of doing stage hypnosis is your responsabity. If you invite members of the public to take part then there are risks involved. All of which come under the activity of doing stage hypnosis.

You can't pick and choose which ones are part of hypnosis and ones that aren't. Its absurd. Its like saying it wasn't the gun that killed him your honour it was the bullet.

Absolutely crazy.


I'm astounded by how you are incapable of differentiating between the hypnotic phenomena and the process of engaging the phenomena, which is called hypnosis and proper stage management. The discussion has been about blisters and other injuries caused by the phenomena itself, it has NOT been a discussion about carelessness of hypnotists on stage with lack of stage and audience management skills. If you can't tell the difference between the two, that's on you, don't reverse things and try to make it look and sound as if those who do not agree with you is on the wrong side of the fence by default.
kissdadookie
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Quote:
On 2010-09-29 05:43, mindpunisher wrote:
I never cease to be surprised on this forum. If you are a stage hypnotist then everything associated with the task of doing stage hypnosis is your responsabity. If you invite members of the public to take part then there are risks involved. All of which come under the activity of doing stage hypnosis.

You can't pick and choose which ones are part of hypnosis and ones that aren't. Its absurd. Its like saying it wasn't the gun that killed him your honour it was the bullet.

Absolutely crazy.


I'm astounded by how you are incapable of differentiating between the hypnotic phenomena and the process of engaging the phenomena, which is called hypnosis and proper stage management. The discussion has been about blisters and other injuries caused by the phenomena itself, it has NOT been a discussion about carelessness of hypnotists on stage with lack of stage and audience management skills. If you can't tell the difference between the two, that's on you, don't reverse things and try to make it look and sound as if those who do not agree with you is on the wrong side of the fence by default.
kissdadookie
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Quote:
On 2010-09-29 05:43, mindpunisher wrote:
I never cease to be surprised on this forum. If you are a stage hypnotist then everything associated with the task of doing stage hypnosis is your responsabity. If you invite members of the public to take part then there are risks involved. All of which come under the activity of doing stage hypnosis.

You can't pick and choose which ones are part of hypnosis and ones that aren't. Its absurd. Its like saying it wasn't the gun that killed him your honour it was the bullet.

Absolutely crazy.


I'm astounded by how you are incapable of differentiating between the hypnotic phenomena and the process of engaging the phenomena, which is called hypnosis and proper stage management. The discussion has been about blisters and other injuries caused by the phenomena itself, it has NOT been a discussion about carelessness of hypnotists on stage with lack of stage and audience management skills. If you can't tell the difference between the two, that's on you, don't reverse things and try to make it look and sound as if those who do not agree with you is on the wrong side of the fence by default.
kissdadookie
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On 2010-09-29 10:00, mindpunisher wrote:
I give up...

Try telling that to the lawyer that prosucutes you due to the fact you aren't licensed or insured or follow guidlelins here in the UK.

All this Sh%&*£ is about selling products and courses trying make hypnosis sound completely safe therefore justified for selling incomplete products and courses to kids and magicians.

You only have dig to find that there are cases that have been prosicuted for neglegence due to physical injuries and that there are a large number of experts who believe hypnisis can be dangerous if abused with certain types of vulnerable people.

If you can't see that then or are happy with the real agenda behind these moronic threads then I am wasting my time.


Even if it is about selling product (the intent of this thread that is), the way you speak about it will easily scare off and misinform the MANY folks who actually read this thread to learn about hypnosis, the phenomena and the process.
mindpunisher
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If they are scared off then I think its a good thing. If the thought of causing injury or being prosecuted because you aren't prepared properly then I think its a good thing.

you shouldn't be screwing around with something like hypnosis unless you know what you are doing. Unfortunately many of those that sell products on here gloss over and either hide or don't know about some of references posted on here recently.

If they are scared off its because I am taking away the misinformation. If you do hypnosis in public without a license OR INSURANCE you are breaking the law in the UK. If you have an accident you are liable to be prosecuted for neglegence.

If you do hypnosis in public - then audience and environment management is a BIG
Part of it. You cannot separate it.

Again if you actually read the posts and referenes posted you will in fact see people are MORE informed not less. There have been prosecutions and people have paid out a lot of money. And there ARE genuine risks to screwing around with hypnosis for those that practice and those that recieve.
kissdadookie
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On 2010-09-29 10:34, mindpunisher wrote:
If they are scared off its because I am taking away the misinformation. If you do hypnosis in public without a license OR INSURANCE you are breaking the law in the UK.


The ironic thing about this statement is that you ARE misinforming. The broken leg example was due to stage management. It could have easily happened if one was a mentalist performing a mentalism act or a magician performing a magic act. The without a license part of the UK law you speak of does NOT mention needing a license for hypnosis in the sense of needing hypnosis certification, it EXPLICITLY states that one can not perform in an area NOT zoned for performances UNLESS getting permission from the venue operator. The Hypnotism Act is right here: http://www.opsi.gov.uk/RevisedStatutes/A......046_en_1

Please point out to me where it explicitly states that one needs a hypnosis license (mind you, needing permission to perform at a venue is COMPLETELY different from needing a hypnosis certification, in other words, if the venue operator gives you permission, you are now legally free to do a hypnosis show at that venue bearing the terms of agreement to use the facility). Now, getting a performer's liability insurance is a completely different matter. The requirement for a hypnosis certificate in order to get insurance is wholly of the discretion of the insurance company and the insurance company is an independent NON-GOVERNMENT party. Mind you, all this is purely in the context of HYPNOSIS IN AN ENTERTAINMENT CONTEXT, hypnotherapy is something else entirely.

Also, when you reply to this post MP, please refrain from ignoring the VERY SPECIFIC wordings of my post and going off with gross generalizations and being selective as to which parts of my post you respond to. If you do so, it should be noted that you are not responding to my post since it's out of context and instead, you're picking bits and pieces to serve only for whatever odd personal agenda you need it to serve.
mindpunisher
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First of all this is a stage hypnosis forum, Secondly I mentioned license not certificate two totally completely different things. You don't seem to knw the difference. And I can't be arsed explaining do a search on here or google.

And you want me to do your work for you yet again? just ASK ANY UK LOCAL COUNCIL AUTHORITY and they will tell you - YOU NEED A LICENSE TO PERFORM ANY PUBLIC DEMONSTRATION.

Why ask me? However there is info around from someone that's already done that with many councils with replies in writing. And they all stated you need permision/license.

I'm sorry if I seem generalized but I find it difficult to keep up with every word you post. Why don't you take it upon yourself to actually do some research and find out the truth for yourself instead of buying into some of the REAL misinformation on here?
kissdadookie
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Again, the I've pointed out the actual Hypnotism Act from YOUR COUNTRY and you've blatantly disregarded it and again you just generalize and misinform. Difficult to keep up with every word? So in other words, you basically just do not care about what I wrote, did not think about it, and you are only concerned with your own personal agenda whatever that may be. I DID THE RESEARCH! I've pointed out that what you claim DOES NOT HOLD UP because IT IS NOT IN THE BRITISH HYPNOTISM ACT. YOU are the one that is NOT doing the research. The only reason I asked that you point out what I asked you to point out is for one reason and purpose one. That reason being the following:

YOUR STATEMENT DOES NOT HOLD UP AND IS NOT SUPPORTED BY THE BRITISH HYPNOTISM ACT.

You want to prove me wrong? Then prove to me how the British Hypnotism Act supports your arguments. The fact is that you can not.
mindpunisher
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Im not going to argue with you. I work in the industry here in the UK. Ive already told you ASK ANY COUNCIL AUTHORITY.

There has been some clamp down in a few areas already. But the big one will be when there is an accident. Lets test your theory in court.

You don't even live here or work here you didn't even know the difference between a license and a certificate. And you are telling me! No wonder there is so much misinformation being thrown around.

Im not going to waste anymore time you obviously know everything. And your right I can't be arsed replying to half of what you say. You don't listen to a word I say so why should I?

last post on this..
kissdadookie
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On 2010-09-29 11:39, mindpunisher wrote:
you don't even live here or work here you didn't even know the difference between a license and a certificate. And you are telling me! No wonder there is so much misinformation being thrown around.


No sir, the misinformation is from you. You don't know the difference between "places licensed for public entertainment" (direct quote from the British Hypnotism Act, available to read right here: ( http://www.opsi.gov.uk/RevisedStatutes/A......046_en_1 ) and licensed to hypnotize. How sad is that? The law is more or less about getting a permit to use a venue. It is the same as getting a permit to perform as a mime at the venue. Do you need to be a licensed mime? I'm not aware that there were mime licenses to be attained! How about those folks who stand there like statues and act like robots? Oh no, now you're going to tell me there's a license to do that too. How about clowns? Oh my goodness, now you need to be a licensed clown. Elvis impersonator? Whoa, now you need a licensed Elvis impersonator.

Again, the British Hypnotism Act is a statute from your own national law. You want to argue with me? First argue with your government and demand from them why the actual laws run contrary to your beliefs and understanding of the law. I shed a tear for you and your complete lack of understanding of the laws of your country. How is it that an American is able to understand it yet you are oblivious to it?

As to my mention of hypnosis certificates? YOU VERY WELL UNDERSTAND that I was referring to becoming a certified hypnotist in order to attain things like insurance coverage. You chose to play coy here and twist my words but even the dimmest of the dim would have fully understood what I had meant.
mindpunisher
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You are so way off you have no idea. When apply for the license you get a full police check carried out on you. Any offences and you wil not get the license. You must have public liability specifically for hypnosis. Which is very difficult to get if you have no experience of doing professional shows plus very expensive.

You have a very rigid list of specific giudlines that you must follow stating what you can and can't do with hypnosis. They come check the venue your insurance before they grant it.

The deal with the insurance I got from equity requires you record every show and keep it for 6 years in case of any lawsuit to prove you stick by the guidelines and therefore cannot be sued for neglegence.

Just typical of an ignorant know it all who has no clue. once again just ask in writing most councils if they need a license including insurance/ permission to perform in any street. Just ask. And as I have already stated some councils have made it clear they will be clamping down on impromtu hypnosis in bars or streets.

In fact indeed it has already started.

try applying for the license . You are a complete idiot. Save your tears for your therapist. You need one.
kissdadookie
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Again, I love how you just ignore the fact that there is a statute and it's there in your national law. It's quite fine, you can continue on pumping your chest and giving us the he said she said baloney but it still comes down to what is written there in plain english in your laws.

It's very simple, all you have to do is prove me wrong by pointing to the statutes in the laws of your country for reference. Telling me the "I heard this and I heard that" without ever pointing to any official documentation supportable in a court of law is exactly that, a bunch of "I heard this and I heard that." I have heard that the moon is made from cheese, since I heard it, it must be true then right? Surely it has to be according to your logic.
mindpunisher
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And you ignore the fact I am working in the industry. Ive told you ASK WHAT YOU NEED AND THEN APPLY.

You just ignored my last post. Why should I waste my time on you? You are obviously an expert. And most people on here have not worked through the media witch hunts during the 90s. If they had they might be thinking twice about what they do. It will only take one bad accident to make the news and it will all flare up again. And the anti brigade will think its xmas with the ammo they will have.

The problem with the overall wording applying to venues is that there wasn't a growing number of hypnotists performing in the street. So really its a play on words but many councils have made it clear that you need a hypnotic license for the street. FOR ANY PUBLIC DEMONSRATION.

If you want to test in court go ahead. But Its most likely that won't happen until there is a bad injury.
kissdadookie
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Again, you're not an official source, show me proof from an official source that can be used in a court of law. After all, we are talking about the law are we not? Should I be trusting you just because you are a hypnotist or should I be going by the actual statutes of the law? Most definitely the latter. But then again, the moon is made of cheese because that's what I've heard and according to you, what one hears through word of mouth must be true. I didn't ignore your last post, you've just never actually answered my initial posts and instead went off on a "I heard this and I heard that" tangent.

So what is it then MP? Are you going to support your statements with statutes of the law (in which you will have to point us to the statutes) or are you going to continue to support your statements with "I heard this happened to so and so and that happened to so and so." Maybe you would care to twist my words and take things out of context again? So, what is it? Pick your poison. At the end of the day, the law is the law and one can find the law in official print from the government.
mindpunisher
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Here we go again...

I tell you what put £30 into my paypal account and I will give you as much info as you want. The £30 will cover my time researching it for you. It seems everything ive p ut up so far isn't being valued . So put your money where your mouth is and I will be happy to show you official sources. If I can't I will give you your money back and pay you!

How about it?

Or you can write to a dozen coucil athorities yourself and ask them if you need a hypnotic license to perform in the street. You are basicall;y callimg me a liar now. Either do the work ourself or pay me for the research which I am happy to get for you. But I am not wasting anymore time posting up evidence that's not valued.

Just to satisfy some armchair expert on uk law.
kissdadookie
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Sir, I'm going by what is readily available for view and is official UK government law. If you can disprove me using similarly credible sources then fine. So far, you have not. I'm not saying that I'm 100% correct but from the source I've repeatedly pointed to (a statute in UK law, the link is also a government link), so far I'm on point. You on the other hand have not provided a single iota of supporting documentation that is comparable to that of which I've referenced.

Here's the situation, thus far my comments are supported by facts which I've referenced. Your comments are supported by what you claim you've heard and from you're "experience" but the problem is that nobody knows where you heard what you heard from and your "experience" is more or less your personal views, both of which you have been unable to support with official government statutes. At the minimum, I at least have a credible source, you on the other hand, nada. Right now you have ZERO, ZILCH, NADA official documentation to support your argument and thus, what you say can NOT be in any way, shape, or form, be considered facts. Right now, I can be completely talking out of my rear but thus far, what I've stated are supported by official documentation and thus can be considered factual.

I may very well be a armchair expert but I at least have factual official sources to reference, you on the other hand, I'm still waiting for any kind of official sources to support your claims. We are after all talking about the law, the law is the law, it is factual, it can be referred back to, it is what it is. If talking about something being legal or illegal, one can only really reference back to the law, saying "I heard this and I heard that" or "this is the way it is because this is what I know" means absolutely diddly squat in an argument about legality.
mindpunisher
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I just told you the local authorities will tell you you need a license. The acct was created to protect the public from abusive hypnotists. Its about hypnosis not venues.

Mckenna was prosecuted for neglegence which they couldn't make stick because he abides by all the guidelines.

Halpern on the other hand didn't he got sued for £20k and the venue £90k

It seems to me any hypnotist that don't abide by the guidelines will be sued for neglegence if there is an accident.

Most councils will tell you - you need a hypnotic licence for street or impromtu bars. There is no doubt about that. Some are already stating they are ready to clamp down.

You sir are a complete waste of time. And one of the reasons the hypnosis industry in this country is under threat.
kissdadookie
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On 2010-09-29 13:31, mindpunisher wrote:
It seems to me any hypnotist that don't abide by the guidelines will be sued for neglegence if there is an accident.


HA HA HA HA. Again you pick and choose things to support your argument and take it all out of context. We were discussing if it is illegal or legal to hypnotize without a hypnotic license and NOW it's clear that you're talking about negligence. Negligence is one thing and only comes into question when an accident occurs. This has nothing to do with the legality of being able to hypnotize without being a licensed hypnotist. Very soon you're going to run out of things to twist around and argue about because you've jumped around different subjects at least 3 times now and hilariously, you have yet to support any of your arguments with official documentation. Look, I can be wrong, you can be totally right, all you have to do is point us to the official documentation to support your argument!
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