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Anthony Jacquin
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I am interested in evidence that will back up or negate absurd claims. Suggesting hypnosis is a trigger for psychosis is such a claim until there is any evidence. Currently even the anecdotal evidence is not backing that up. That is why I would like you to type the names of the prominent experts you mentioned who can back it up. What are they experts in and are they qualified to reach that conclusion?

I do not understand why you can be bothered to type in the claim but not be bothered to type in the names of those people. I will pursue it and am not asking you to do the work for me, just point me at those experts so I can get started? I am alwys interested in reading expert opinion.

Anthony
Anthony Jacquin

Reality is Plastic! The Art of Impromptu Hypnosis
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mindpunisher
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It could be something that will never be proved. Its easy if you you read the above posts you will find the experts. Even Heap the recognized hypnosis expert defending Mckenna case thought that there was probably was a connection with hypnosis and the triggering of schizophrenia. Its all there if you "want" to find it.

It might never be provable one way or another but a lawyer with the intent to go after you will find solid ammo for those that are uninsured not licensed not trained and don't follow the guidelines. That is simply a fact.

But like I said I only put this stuff up come to your own conclusions. at the end of the day we all follow what we believe to be right.

Back to the original thread to say injuries are a myth is a myth.
mindpunisher
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It was wagstaff not heap. You are right Ant I can't be arsed. So I can't give specifics. I read the articles years ago. Heap was involved in the case of Sharron Tarbarn. I remember reading something where he said although there was "no direct evidence that stage hypnosis caused her death he couldn't prove it didn't. And he also contradicted himself on numerous occasions about the safety of hypnosis and the possibility of hypnosis bringing on fits..

Its up there http://www.tracieokeefe.com/sharrontabarn.htm

There is loads of stuff up there for those that can be bothered. I can't be.

Its pretty heavy stuff. Im sure you will enjoy it.

The only conclusion I take from all this is nothing is clear cut one way or another. And that being the case we should err on the side of caution.
Anthony Jacquin
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Quote:
On 2010-09-27 09:33, mindpunisher wrote:
And he also contradicted himself on numerous occasions about the safety of hypnosis and the possibility of hypnosis bringing on fits..


Thanks.

So which one of his opinions should we call the 'expert' view?
Anthony Jacquin

Reality is Plastic! The Art of Impromptu Hypnosis
Updated for 2016

Now on Kindle and Audible!
mindpunisher
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If you read the paper there are loads of experts that make contribution for and against.

I think you have to make up your own mind. But one thing is for sure its not clear cut. One of the aspects was finding a chemical in her blood to suggest she took a fit. Heap talks about a certain type of hypnosis being able to induce a fit and then talks about there could be no direct connection.

I am sure somewhere in there he says he can't dismiss that there was a connection.

If we go down your route by questioning "expert" then you have to concede that its possible that hypnosis had a connection. Or do you only believe the "experts" that support what you want to believe?

There are weeks of study in this thread if you want to go down that route. I have read some of it. But personally Ive seen to much doing shows myself to know hypnosis is not totally safe. There is always a risk. Even recently someone jumped off the stage instead of taking the steps on one of my recent shows despite being told to take the steps. And Ive seen it a few times at other shows.

You believe what you want to in the end we all do anyway. All I am doing is showing you there are varying opoinions from recognised "experts". Its not clear cut. And that there is indeed injuries and legal cases against hypnotists. Instead of arguing why not check them out?
kissdadookie
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Quote:
On 2010-09-27 05:56, Anthony Jacquin wrote:
So none of the reported cases of injury have anything to do with the hypnotizing element of the show. They are just due to negligence of stage safety management and underestimation of the power of blanks.


I think that's the bulk of the "training" or "education" that should be noted and enforced when hypnotizing. I think the suggestions themselves are relatively harmless but the common sense aspects of how to treat ones subject and be prepared for different types of reactions and responses are the kind of nitty gritty details that one should be familiar and comfortable with. After all, common sense is usually not so common for some reason Smile

I think someone should come up with a stage management course so that performers don't end up learning these things through experience with actual faux pas on stage during their acts.
mindpunisher
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>>>I think someone should come up with a stage management course so that performers don't end up learning these things through experience with actual faux pas on stage during their acts.<<<

What about streets? Potentially more hazards I would've thought.
kissdadookie
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Quote:
On 2010-09-27 11:22, mindpunisher wrote:
>>>I think someone should come up with a stage management course so that performers don't end up learning these things through experience with actual faux pas on stage during their acts.<<<

What about streets? Potentially more hazards I would've thought.


I would think that stage safety management would be similar to street safety management. The bulk of it really ends up being making sure your subject/audience member doesn't run smack dab into physical obstacles (like the steps for a stage or even the edge of a stage and on coming traffic in the streets, etc.) or fall near sharp objects, sharp corners, etc. Another thing specifically for hypnosis I would think is knowing when a suggestion is too much because you don't want to drive the person being hypnotized into a panic (different people have different reactions when let's say you make yourself invisible and start floating objects around them). Common sense really but I guess common sense is so common that many a times people forget about it.
bobser
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I think that much of Tracie Okeefe's work is flawed. She cites statements from Tom Dick and Harry and by her very own words she takes a biased view before even writing this diatribe. She gets close now and again to coming to a proper conclusion but doesn't quite get there. It's kinda' like she is an academic but only just. And another thing: I'm not really sure if I think a doctor of hypnosis can ever be a proper doctorate. She's a sex therapist for Chrissakes. I assume she simply shakes their hand and listens intently for the moaning to start. Who said SHE should be wearing the white hat?
Look we all know the answer to this question; hypnosis is extremely safe, unless you get a twit of a hypnotist. And by their fruits (or stories) ye shall know them. They tell you of how the 'hypnosis' went wrong whilst seemingly having total amnesia to the fact that THEY were the bloody 'hypnotist' who told their client/audience: "I'll take good care of you!"
No, hypnosis is fine. It's just that it attracts some eejits who are quite simply not fit for purpose.

Bob
Bob Burns is the creator of The Swan.
mindpunisher
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That's no true Bob there are plenty of Medical doctors that believe stage hypnosis is dangerous. There are plenty facts cited in the paper above. Not just her beliefs. that's just one source. She has as much authority as you to put together a "case".

>>>No, hypnosis is fine. It's just that it attracts some eejits who are quite simply not fit for purpose.<<<< that's very true that's why we are having this conversation. you could say the same about guns.

But based upon your mental makeup you will believe what you want anyway and ignore anything that says different. One day perhaps we will see an untrained uninsured and unlicensed street hypnotist in court. If it continues to grow in popularity the chances are its going to happen. I find it puzzling why the street/impromtu league seem to think they are immune or have better practices? Lets hope your not the eejit.

And that paper I like the fact it makes no conclusions. how can you honestly put your hand on your heart and not be cautious. No one knows for sure the real truth.
kissdadookie
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Quote:
On 2010-09-27 15:02, mindpunisher wrote:
That's no true Bob there are plenty of Medical doctors that believe stage hypnosis is dangerous. There are plenty facts cited in the paper above. Not just her beliefs. that's just one source. She has as much authority as you to put together a "case".


On the flip side of the coin, how many Medical doctors (or people in general) actually know how hypnosis works and has actually worked with it? Even hypnotists can't agree on how this stuff actually works (thus we are having this discussion).
mindpunisher
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Which is why I can't be sure one way or another.
bobser
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Quote:
On 2010-09-27 15:02, mindpunisher wrote:
That's no true Bob there are plenty of Medical doctors that believe stage hypnosis is dangerous.

Yeah but I've spoken to many of them and they don't know diddlyshite. Read what kissdadookie said.

Quote:
But based upon your mental makeup you will believe what you want anyway and ignore anything that says different.


On the contrary Bri, it's got very little to do with my mental make-up as I am a bonafide social scientist. In fact the one thing I am absolutely more interested in than anything is 'your' belief structure and/or why that is, or anyone else I am having the argument/discussion with. I am totally open to having my opinion changed as I am constantly seeking knowledge. There are many in here like me.
ie: if you watch that Jacquin lad you'll notice that all he's ever really saying to you is: "Show me."
When you reply: "I can't be arsed" the discussion dies right there.
Bob Burns is the creator of The Swan.
mindpunisher
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The discussion hasn't died we are still having it aren't we? "show me" and "prove it" can be applied to both sides. And that doesn't do anything does it? There is a lot of proof in this thread and a lot of refrences its up to you if you want to explore them.

Its a bit like playing tennis and having one person do all the running while the other stands there. There are loads of references in this thread. Do you really need for me to show you every one of them. If you feel you want to read them yourself.

And the doctors I was refering to belong to the Medical and Dental Hypnosis association. I think they know something although you might not agree with their conclusions.

There's no way you will change your perspective about hypnosis either about the dangers or the legal aspects or whatever until perhaps a new reference emerges specific to you. Time will tell. If things grow by chance one will appear.

And I doubt mines will change either. Apart from that I don't totally disagree with you or Ant I just don't totally agree either. you can't be sure one way or another no one can.
mindpunisher
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And I really can't be arsed just now... I think its lack of light. If Im honest I am really struggling to do anything just now. For what its worth I think the Doctors at the Medical and Dental Hypnosis association are mostly wrong. But they can't be all wrong. I was on TV with one of them in the 90s. He made claims of someone addicted to eating onions after being on stage and losing their relationship and their job because of it.

But he also had a list of people he saw who had physical injuries which sounded more convincing. Remember way back then there wasn't the no-win-no-fee culture there is now. Things might be different if someone gets injured now as in legal proceedings.

The street/impromtu wave is such a new development. But just like the stage if it continues to grow chances are it will have its own cases eventually.
dmkraig
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MP--I have no doubt that here in the litigious U.S. there will be cases. Of course, they will be totally bogus and an attempt to make some money off of some poor slob. It will make all the news media. Of course, when it's thrown out of court after the "victim" admits to fraud, nobody will cover it and decades from now people will be quoting it as if it had some value.
mindpunisher
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I think there are bogus cases but there are also genuine ones to. Broken bones aren't fraud. And people on the verge of a breakdown and not knowing it could be pushed over the edge by an experience on stage. I believe that's possible. Although cannot be blamed soley on hypnosis it may be proved that the hypnotist was neglegent. Which has been successfully prosecuted in this country already.

Hypnosis is no different from most things if used wrongly. And even with care there are risks.
Nongard1
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THE IS NONE!

Quote:
On 2010-09-27 07:14, Anthony Jacquin wrote:
He wasn't in a trance. His psychosis was unrelated to his hypnosis he could just as easily have gone bonkers in a traffic jam. Can you show me any evidence that 'hypnosis can be the trigger that fires people into insanity'?

Anthony
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Nongard1
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This is a large part of the course we wrote at http://www.SafeOnStage.com for the liability insurance. Stage managmenet is a HUGE part of this course.

Quote:
I think someone should come up with a stage management course so that performers don't end up learning these things through experience with actual faux pas on stage during their acts.
Dr. Richard Nongard, Professional Hypnosis Training
Learn how to master the art of SpeedTrance, Clinical and Stage Hypnosis
mindpunisher
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Quote:
On 2010-09-28 16:59, Nongard1 wrote:
THE IS NONE!

Quote:
On 2010-09-27 07:14, Anthony Jacquin wrote:
He wasn't in a trance. His psychosis was unrelated to his hypnosis he could just as easily have gone bonkers in a traffic jam. Can you show me any evidence that 'hypnosis can be the trigger that fires people into insanity'?

Anthony



There is no evidence to prove it doesn't either!
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