We Remember The Magic Café We Remember
Username:
Password:
[ Lost Password ]
  [ Forgot Username ]
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » You are getting sleepy...very sleepy... » » Injuries myth (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

 Go to page [Previous]  1~2~3~4 [Next]
bobser
View Profile
Inner circle
4176 Posts

Profile of bobser
Ah, but everyone would agree that in the history of philosophical argument, not one person, ever, has been able to prove a negative.
Bob Burns is the creator of The Swan.
mindpunisher
View Profile
Inner circle
6132 Posts

Profile of mindpunisher
Everyone? Anyway you still miss the point. It can't at this moment be proved one way or another which suggests at least morally we have a duty those in our "influence" to do everything we can to make the experience as safe as possible. There are medical and psychiatric experts who do believe its possible. Personally I don't know one way or another for sure. NO ONE CAN. But I am always concerned that someone may just react badly to hypnosis.

The person who started the "Myth of injuries", ended up with a volunteer breaking their leg! What has to happen before he and others with a similar mindset wake up and realise their are real risks to hypnosis. If NOT the "process" then the activity. Either way its hypnosis.

I never had you down as a philosopher Bobser? I'm impressed in a twisted way.
dmkraig
View Profile
Inner circle
1949 Posts

Profile of dmkraig
Quote:
On 2010-09-28 19:10, bobser wrote:
Ah, but everyone would agree that in the history of philosophical argument, not one person, ever, has been able to prove a negative.


So you can't prove that you're not Winston Churchill.
Fascinating.
mindpunisher
View Profile
Inner circle
6132 Posts

Profile of mindpunisher
Bobser can't prove 2+2 = 4
RobertTemple
View Profile
Regular user
Newcastle, UK
174 Posts

Profile of RobertTemple
Alright, so this thread is called 'Injuries Myth', so with that in mind I'd strongly advise that anyone who wants to learn more about this subject (and its related issues such as Laws, Licensing, Insurance, Risk Assessments etc) would be well advised to check out the thread which has now been locked here on this forum entitled “The Dangers of Hypnosis” as per:
http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......m=22&218

There is some seriously good information at that link especially if you pay particular attention to the postings from MP, Simon Warner, myself and a few others who clearly do know what they are talking about.

There are however a few major points which are extremely misleading in the thread (http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=383196&forum=22&218) which as yet have not been addressed and I feel that now is the time to make a few things clear, which when considered in connection with all of the postings should help to give you a fuller understanding of the true potential Dangers and connected Legal/Insurance Issues which do indeed Surround Stage & Street Hypnosis around the world and especially so in England (UK)

I shall discuss these points (and raise new issues) by posting each individual relevant issue as a separate forum post here in this thread, so lets begin at the logical place, namely the beginning:

01) In the thread of http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......m=22&218 – Bobser States and I quote…

“Yes, Martin Taylor does a great 'non-hypnosis show' which arguably is a full hypnosis show of course. But here's the thing. I don't NEED a license (still need public liability) for a NON-hypnosis show”.

That's wrong, Bobser... if you take a look at Martin Taylor's own personal website (http://www.hypnotism.co.uk) and pay particular attention to the page on his site of http://www.hypnotism.co.uk/about-hypnosis.html whilst Martin is claiming that his show does not need a License to perform the fact is that under the UK 1952 Hypnotism Act is does as he openly admits that he uses The Power of Suggestion…

Take a look at the 1952 Hypnotism Act here: http://www.opsi.gov.uk/RevisedStatutes/A......046_en_1

And take a closer look at Section Six of the act which clearly states:

6 Interpretation
In this Act, except where the context otherwise requires it, the following expression shall have the meaning hereby assigned to it, that is to say:—
“hypnotism” includes hypnotism, mesmerism and any similar act or process which produces or is intended to produce in any person any form of induced sleep or trance in which the susceptibility of the mind of that person to suggestion or direction is increased or intended to be increased but does not include hypnotism, mesmerism or any such similar act or process which is self-induced.

Essentially therefore he does need a license under the 1952 Hypnotism Act which probably also explains why he is a Member of The Federation of Ethical Stage Hypnotists as proven at this link: http://www.s127815135.websitehome.co.uk/21304.html

And if you take a look at http://www.s127815135.websitehome.co.uk/21432.html you will notice that as a member Martin Taylor is obligated to hold the correct FESH Approved Insurance Cover which for the record is a policy that covers for whilst people are “In Trance” and is the type of insurance required to get licenses and permissions granted by UK Councils for shows to legally take place.

Ask yourself this, why would Martin Taylor bother to be a Member of The Federation of Ethical Stage Hypnotists and pay for expensive “in trance” hypnosis insurance cover if he truly believed that he was legally covered by the claims on his website at: http://www.hypnotism.co.uk/index.html

Further it has been mentioned on the “Dangers of Hypnosis” thread that Martin Taylor is on the Equity Stage Hypnotists Panel/Register – again why would this be the case if he truly believed that he was legally covered as per the claims on his website?

To be associated to Equity in this manner you are agreeing to a code of conduct etc which can be seen in full by downloading the document which is available from the first site shown at this link: http://www.google.co.uk/#hl=en&expIds=17......587325fb

In truth there are indeed a few loopholes in the 1952 Hypnotism Act which allows “Hypnosis Style Shows” to take place without the need for applying for a license (however The Correct Insurance Cover and Risk Assessments being in place would as explained in the “Dangers of Hypnosis” thread still be a Legal Requirement.

These loopholes are:

5 Saving for scientific purposes
Nothing in this Act shall prevent the exhibition, demonstration or performance of hypnotism (otherwise than at or in connection with an entertainment) for scientific or research purposes or for the treatment of mental or physical disease.

Yes you could claim that the show was being presented for Scientific and/or Research Purposes, however you could not have any other act or entertainment (e.g. DJ) appearing in the same venue as you on the same night otherwise you would still be breaking the law and the event must be clearly advertised as “For Scientific/Research Purposes and indeed to be legal you would have to be collecting Research Data about Hypnosis and be able to provide Legal Proof of your intention to publish the findings of your data otherwise you may just still find yourself in Legal Hot water as is illustrated by the 50 Example Replies obtained from UK Councils which can be seen at this link:

http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=11......topic=51

The only other real loophole is as per section six of the 1952 hypnotism act:

6 Interpretation
In this Act, except where the context otherwise requires it, the following expression shall have the meaning hereby assigned to it, that is to say:—
“hypnotism” includes hypnotism, mesmerism and any similar act or process which produces or is intended to produce in any person any form of induced sleep or trance in which the susceptibility of the mind of that person to suggestion or direction is increased or intended to be increased but does not include hypnotism, mesmerism or any such similar act or process which is self-induced.

The key phrase of this being:

“but does not include hypnotism, mesmerism or any such similar act or process which is self-induced”

So in theory you could argue that “All Hypnosis is Self-Hypnosis” and that the volunteers hypnotize themselves and in theory you would not need to apply for a License/Permission.

However as illustrated at http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=11......topic=51 most all UK Councils Legal Licensing Enforcement Units take a very different view of this.

In any case you would still need the correct nature of Public Liability Insurance Cover and to have the correct Health and Safety Executive Approved Written Risk Assessments in place otherwise you’d still be breaking various laws (which do have CRIMINAL LAW repercussions) and could find yourself in very hot water indeed.

The truth is that even if you deny the existence of Hypnosis and Trance, even if you call yourself a “Psychological Illusionist” and claim that you are not using any hypnosis whatsoever then arguably if any accidents ever occurred to any of your volunteers on Stage or on the Streets you could still face Legal Action for Negligence and/or Criminal Assault as explained in the Wonderful Book “Practising Safe Hypnosis” by Roger Hambleton as per http://www.amazon.co.uk/Practising-Safe-......99836942

What you call it does NOT matter in the slightest. There are still very real risks and dangers, people do still get hurt and legal claims are and will still be made against such performers on many levels.

Personally I’d advise you that its far easier, safer and more ethical in the long term to do things by the book to both cover yourself Legally and Lawfully on all levels and also to have absolutely everything possible in place to protect your volunteers from any instances of harm and to that end you’d be well advised to heed the excellent advice given mainly by MindPunisher and myself in the “Dangers of Hypnosis” thread here - http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......m=22&218
RobertTemple
View Profile
Regular user
Newcastle, UK
174 Posts

Profile of RobertTemple
My second major point relates to the comments made by Richard Nongard in the “Dangers of Hypnosis” Thread at: http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......m=22&218

With the greatest of respect Richard I am amazed that an Ethical Professional of your standing would be taking such a flippant attitude to matters of Legal Issues surrounding hypnosis and the very real dangers surrounding Hypnosis especially that of a Street Hypnosis Nature.

The truth is that anyone who spends just a short while searching the internet can quite easily find videos of far more than 50 different people doing Street Hypnosis both Illegally and Dangerously in an uninsured manner in England alone!

Indeed take a look at forums such as “Talk Magic” – “Magic Bunny” and “Uncommon Forum” and Facebook Groups relating to “Street Hypnosis” and it very quickly becomes obvious that there are way more than the figure you quote of 50 Street Hypnotist’s doing Illegal, Unlicensed, Uninsured and potentially very dangerous “Street Hypnosis” group meet ups and also solo hypnosis in England (UK) and way more than you’ve quoted as figures for USA.

Respectfully what have you got to hide? – Are you concerned that your sales to England (UK) may drop if you admit the truth that there are indeed Legal Obligations for all UK Stage and Street (and that includes hobbyists) Hypnotists to abide by?

Indeed when you know that your products sell in England (UK) and in Europe etc, why don’t you include full details of the 1952 Hypnotism Act and other laws that are relevant around the world (e.g. such as Licenses also being needed by the Hypnotist from the Government in places such as Sweden)?

The same applies to Anthony Jacquin, from what I have seen other than an on screen visual “disclaimer” saying “check the laws in your country” and a short 5 minutes or so talk on safety which does not even scrape the tip of the iceberg of the potential dangers of Hypnosis or the legal and insurance obligations Hypnotists actually do have under various “duty of care and/or Negligence” laws worldwide, and that’s even when there are no directly specific laws relating to hypnosis itself, legal obligations which they must abide by, so the big question is why not cover this in your training products?

Finally Richard, if you think the UK 1952 Hypnotism Act is such a farce, then why did you invite JR as your personal guest to attend your Manchester (UK) Speed Trance training weekend to advise you on UK Legal issues?

As you know I attended this event, and along with my colleagues Christopher Caress (UK) - Henry Leander Anderson (Norway) and Rachel Houghton (UK) we can all confirm that we witnessed you ask on many occasions during the weekend JR for his help, advice and insights relating to the UK 1952 Hypnotism Act and other Hypnosis Related Laws and Issues in Europe.

Hell we all also witnessed you thanking JR for his invaluable help, insight and advice on UK Hypnosis Laws and related issues on many occasions, so why your sudden change of tune?
RobertTemple
View Profile
Regular user
Newcastle, UK
174 Posts

Profile of RobertTemple
Oh, and finally, in the thread of - http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......m=22&218

DJmagic4 and some other uses raised the question of “why can’t stage/street hypnosis insurance be cheaper in UK”

As you’ll realise (by looking at the other thread) that’s quite simply because UK Insurance companies consider the activities to be too high a risk to reduce premiums.

Sources of Insurance cover are discussed in the previous thread, however for those who want to do things by the book (and abide by all laws) you can now get The Correct Nature of Public Liability Insurance Cover for just £150 UK Sterling a year.

The policy is such that it affords you Five Million Pounds of Public Liability Insurance Cover and insures you for all locations in England & Europe for both indoors and outdoor venues, yes that’s right it would even cover you for performing on the Street, which most all of the other policies currently available in the UK would not.

And should you ever wish to perform overseas in for example America or The Middle East then for a small fee you can get the policy upgraded to cover you for those specific overseas performances which are outside of England and Europe.

Best of all the insurance enables you to easily get the correct Licenses granted to legally perform your shows from UK Council Authorities and at just £150 a year there is truly now no excuse for anyone not to be correctly insured and legal in all manners.

The only catch is that in order for the Insurance Company to agree to insure you, you must provide proof that you are a Member of The Professional Organisation of Stage Hypnotists (POSH) and that you have studied their full Health & Safety and Legal Hypnosis Course entitled “The Transparency Template”, which I was a speaker at.

This is very much the same as in America whereby to be accepted to get the correct insurance you have to study a Stage/Street Hypnosis Safety course, the main one of which is http://www.thehypnosiscompany.com/safety/ run by Justin James of which ironically Richard Nongard is an advisor.

However it is my understanding that the Hypnosis Health & Safety Course and Legal Training given within the “Transparency Template” go way above the contents of the USA “Safety Courses” and that absolutely anybody considering (or who already does) add any level of hypnosis to their performances should check out these video links:

Cheap (£150 a year) Stage & Street Hypnosis Insurance for UK - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UH7xyqp8oiI

For Real In-Depth Hypnosis Health & SAFETY Training which is relevant for all Hypnotists of any nature wherever you are located in the world check out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sSIenZ9tfs... you'll even get to see my glorious hair! ;-)
kissdadookie
View Profile
Inner circle
4241 Posts

Profile of kissdadookie
We get it, you and your buddy are the self proclaimed safest in both performing hypnotism as well as training. Now, either buy a Café banner ad and link it to a advert site or stop spamming this forum.
bobser
View Profile
Inner circle
4176 Posts

Profile of bobser
Ok, I'm sure Richard will handle Robert's objections very easily in post no: 2
I'll handle 1 & 3 here.
First no: 1. Robert in all fairness is missing the main point re Martin Taylor. It's got nothing to do with him being a member of all those governing bodies (which have no power to govern anything by the way), which lets face it, are constructed exlusionist groups built to make somebody in a big room extra spondoola.
The thing is martin HAS said is that he "uses the power of suggestion". And there lies the rub. He believes in suggestion but doesn't in hypnosis, however the powers that be see suggestion and hypnosis as one, ergo: has to have a license.
However, If I rebut the existence of hypnos and also rebut trance I am NOT doing a hypnosis show and do NOT need a license.
Don#'t believe me? Here's a fact. No one, ever, in the history of 'this stuff' has ever done a non-hypnosis show, whilst claiming there is no trance involved either, but that it's just a bit of fun... yet has needed a license for a hypnosis show.
Now I said all of this earlier Robert, However, if you can give me an example (just one, that's not too dificult eh?) out of all those shows where a non hypnosis and none trance show has taken place,yet they were instructed to get a hypnotic licence, you win the argumenet. But you won't, because it's never happened and never would, because it never could.
Again as I said earlier you DO need public liability, but that's all.
As for your last post re insurance... you're not very good at listening are you? I already said it's based on actuarial assumption (I used to be an actuary) and Craig rightly reminded me (well done Craig) that it is also based on demand, which here in the UK there isn't really a lot of.
Right, now then, stop trying to win arguments based on what some one other than you (call that a guess) is saying.
By the way, I just hypnotised 2 guys in a pub at lunchtime. No insurance and no licensing. Although I don't believe in hypnosis and I didn't use any trance or suggestion. When I said the word TULIP they shouted out: "We love Bob" which was extremely dangerous!!
What's anybody gonna' do about it? What's that? Nothing? Thought so. now go away and get more insurance and extra licensing and leave us all alone. We're not listening to you anymore because it's all very boring.
Bob Burns is the creator of The Swan.
kissdadookie
View Profile
Inner circle
4241 Posts

Profile of kissdadookie
Darnit, I read the word TULIP and shouted out "We love Bob" for no reason. You're a dangerous man Bob.
bobser
View Profile
Inner circle
4176 Posts

Profile of bobser
There... Proof!!!
Bob Burns is the creator of The Swan.
catweazle
View Profile
Special user
924 Posts

Profile of catweazle
O.M.G. I have just been hypnotised - on the street!!
these mind controllers are everywhere, and it seems the better the weather the more hypnotic they become, I was put in to such a deep trance by one of them that while walking along I failed to spot a lamppost and went smack bang into it, didn't half hurt, this trance business is dangerous.

I am now going to write to my local council and demand that all women in sexy revelling clothes are removed from the streets as they are a danger to men, are they insured and licensed to look that good??
I still cant get her out of my head, what kind of hypnotic spell has she put on me??
it should be illegal!!!!!!
bobser
View Profile
Inner circle
4176 Posts

Profile of bobser
Today one of those blighters stuck my hand to a table in a pub called The Jolly Tar and I was thirsty and couldn't reach my advocaat. When I enquired I discovered to my dismay that the cad was devoid of insurance and was not, it would appear, insured to stick people's hands to tables and stop them from reaching their advocaats in pubs called The Jolly Tar. Grrrrrrr!!!!!
Thank goodness we have three stalwarts(two here in The Café and a kind of a doctor who is unfortunately banned from this establishment)who will save us for our own good because they know greater than we small mortals.
But pray tell, where are they at this moment?
Probably getting some stranger to intertwine with a sheep on the edge of a ten foot high stage, which is not really a problem as long as one has insurance and full licensing. So, although it may seem dangerous, it is actually not, due to said insurance and licensing. Logical hmmmmmmm?
Bob Burns is the creator of The Swan.
mindpunisher
View Profile
Inner circle
6132 Posts

Profile of mindpunisher
Bobser you are in the right group along with the school kids and big kids running around feeling big by accosting members of the public.

Fact is what you do is unlawful whether you like it or not. And you promote the illegal use of hypnosis and preach that its ok for someone no matter what age to go out and practice hypnosis in uncontrolable environments with no training.

Anybody with an ounce of common sense forget about the law or insurance can see the stupidity of it.

Any school kid can go out and do what you do. You try and do what I do. Go get a theatre major venue and put on a show.

Get half the reactions I get from audiences? We will soon see who is professional and skilled.

but you prefer to reman at the same level as the amauer dabblers and school kids.

Im telling you now there are a LOT more think like us on these boards they just don't dare tell it how it is.
kissdadookie
View Profile
Inner circle
4241 Posts

Profile of kissdadookie
There's not "a LOT more think like us on these boards," it's just the few on the JR bandwagon including of course yourself.
mindpunisher
View Profile
Inner circle
6132 Posts

Profile of mindpunisher
Well many top mentalists I have spoken to have said the same. As well as a few top hypnotists. And they said it away back when it all first started.

But of course Kissie you know everything including our laws and what its actuall like to work here.

you are a genuis right? A real mind reader.
kissdadookie
View Profile
Inner circle
4241 Posts

Profile of kissdadookie
No point arguing with a spambot (aka, MP). You've already resulted in getting another thread locked due to your nonsense.
Shrubsole
View Profile
Inner circle
Kent, England
2444 Posts

Profile of Shrubsole
If someone who only uses "power of suggestion" comes under the 1952 Hypnotism Act, then why don't all advertisers as that's what they do constantly?

Buy this car = get this lifestyle. All using the "power of suggestion"
Winner of the Dumbringer Award for total incompetence. (All years)
JonChase
View Profile
Loyal user
Exeter, UK
212 Posts

Profile of JonChase
I love it when people get suckered in to media hype. Wspecially magicians and hypnotists who, quite frankly, should know more and better.

None. Not one of the so called hypnotist being sued is on Court Records. That was the first thing the 1996 committee reviewing the 1952 act did, had a crap load of legal eagles check. And not one. All of them were either just so much media hype or, and you guys have got to have considered this, they may well have been actually rumours started by the hypnotists themselves to get publicity.

I know one guy who hired two strippers. Trained them to look hypnotised and then anonymously rang the New of the World and got a 2 page spread showing pictures of naked women on stage.

I am well aware of safety on stage. In fact my book, Deeper and Deeper written 12 years ago now - Amazon - is full of safety tips. However there is a paranoia now that makes watching some shows like watching treacle dry. When all you need to do is tell them at the start "You will not do anything you would normally find dangerous or harmful"

Scince the review there has been one succsful case of a woman suing a stage hypnotist for having a so-called abreaction 6 months after the show and which the hypnotist in question did not defend and he got done £6000 for neglect and the woman since has had a miraculous recovery. This is the only case apparently on record. And please quote court records, all publically available, not some newspaper thing.

I had a headline in the 90's in the Daily Star, "Hypnotist gives WI [womens institute ] an Orgasm on stage"

This came from a tiny piece after an interview with a local jurno at a WI thing when he asked me what sort of stuff I did in my show. I mentioned the orgasmatron as a routine I do and he left. That night however my finalé was the Onions as the full blown orgasm was a scary prospect with the average woman looking like Shrekesses. However he thought it was god copy and it got picked up by the nationals.

Don't believe what you read in the papers. Or from people who are not well informed.
Smiles

Jon Chase



http://jonathanchase.com
bobser
View Profile
Inner circle
4176 Posts

Profile of bobser
Minpunisher, that was Jon Chase. And I do believe he entered the room and spanked you without even raising a hand. And it probably hurt him more than it did you.
But he he was only able to do that since you allowed Jonathan Royle (AKA Corky The Circus Boy)to hypnotise you and fill your head with this sh-te. He's already got wee Robert running all over Europe sending him back money, and now you.
Here's some advice. We've all had a meeting and think you should: dump Mindpunisher. Bring back the happy go lucky 'Shrink' to the family home. We've all missed him!
Bob Burns is the creator of The Swan.
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » You are getting sleepy...very sleepy... » » Injuries myth (0 Likes)
 Go to page [Previous]  1~2~3~4 [Next]
[ Top of Page ]
All content & postings Copyright © 2001-2021 Steve Brooks. All Rights Reserved.
This page was created in 0.35 seconds requiring 5 database queries.
The views and comments expressed on The Magic Café
are not necessarily those of The Magic Café, Steve Brooks, or Steve Brooks Magic.
> Privacy Statement <

ROTFL Billions and billions served! ROTFL