|
|
|
|||
| Go to page 1~2 [Next] | ||||||||||
RogueMD Regular user 133 Posts 
|
Hello all-
I am looking at expanding my horizons as it were, and venturing into the world of cups and balls (I am a "Card Guy" w/ a nice collection of cups sitting on my "magic shelf")!! Anyhow... lots of material to be sure to sort through (thats the fun part!); however, was wondering what opinions people had on starting out. Specifically, starting to learn moves and routining with just 1 cup (ie. "chop cup" routine) seems reasonable, then adding another cup (ala. David Williamson or Tommy Wonder) and finally, 3 cups for a more "tradional" routine. What I'm getting at, I guess, is it reasonable to start with less props and sort of gradually increase; or rather, just start with 3 cups and go for it! I see a practicality to both.... FWIW... lets say performing area will be seated(lapping permitted) at a table. Thanks for any pointers that may help me navigate this (wonderfully) long and tortuous path! Michael |
|||||||||
The Burnaby Kid Inner circle St. John's, Canada 3158 Posts
|
I'd argue in favour of the cups and balls, if only because when you've learned a good, complete routine, you've got lessons that will help you in just about any branch of conjuring, from coins to cards to mentalism. The chop cup can still be helpful, and there are benefits over the cups and balls when it comes to clarity of effect, but perfecting the chop cup won't give you the extra benefits that perfecting the cups and balls will.
JACK, the Jolly Almanac of Card Knavery, a free card magic resource for beginners.
|
|||||||||
DJG Inner circle 1296 Posts
|
It has more to do with a comfort level. Personally I find most 3 cup effects to be self working per se', as opposed to chop cups. It also has to do with what kind of venue. It's a lot more consuming to do a 3 cup routine during walk around as opposed to a chop cup. You have to consider weight, size and the amount of loads you plan on carrying.
|
|||||||||
Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24315 Posts
|
I understand Andrew's reasoning, and I agree with it for the most part. However, I would recommend that you start with the chop cup. I would also recommend that you learn Don Alan's routine.
Why? Even though the Bob Stencil routine (which has been credited to Larry Jennings) is very good, the Don Alan routine is simple, it gets right to the important parts and it's over. The routine will provide you with the necessary misdirection to do the important part. Get Ron Bauer's book about the Don Alan chop cup routine.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
|||||||||
walid ahumada Special user sinaloa, mexico 892 Posts
|
I would leave Tommy Wonder for latter, IMHO Vernon's routine is the best way to start, however there is a problem, most magicians got stuck in there forever, it is hard to get out of this beauty.
“Magic becomes art when it has nothing to hide.” BEN OKRI quote
|
|||||||||
djkuttdecks Special user Portland 662 Posts
|
Quote:
On 2010-09-28 16:06, Bill Palmer wrote: I think I found myself disagreeing with Bill for the first time. A hot place just got really cold! 
I think a standard 3 cup routine is essential for a magician (even if just for fun). I say this over the chop cup because the chop cup relies on a gimmick. The lessons of a straight C&B's routine can be really rewarding in practice alone, not to mention in performance. However, I don't see ANY reason you couldn't work on both during the same time. I guess in the end the question is, where do you find yourself performing most? -Lee |
|||||||||
afinemesh Inner circle Senseless gibberish that amounts to 2621 Posts
|
I agree with pieces of all the above responses, but I think (as Bill states) the chop cup is the place to start and is where I started.
I spent time in Hawaii and worked with Curtis Kam on the chop cup. One cup and the Don Alan routine. It was an invaluable experience. Jorey
"I've always been mental, I'm sure of it" Boris Pocus
"Someday we'll look back on this and it will all seem funny". . .Bruce Springsteen |
|||||||||
|
Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24315 Posts
|
One reason that I prefer starting with the chop cup is the small amount of "real estate" that it requires. You have to figure that each cup really requires an amount of area roughly 4 times the area covered by the mouth of the cup. Another advantage, although you might not think so at this point is that it limits the number of possible moves.
Basically, it forces you to get to the point. Too many routines I have seen spend an overly large amount of time with the little balls. If the gimmick is the problem for you, then learn Crandall's one cup routine. It will give you some loading methods that were only recently rediscovered. BTW, I'm not suggesting that you stop with the chop cup. That's where you start. Go elsewhere once you have mastered it. Here's a suggestion that I don't believe anyone will argue with: look at several routines. Analyze them. Watch Don Alan do his. Watch Paul Daniels do his. Watch Vernon. Watch as many as you can find. Then learn the one that appeals to you. Although Paul Daniels' routine is basically the Ken Brooke routine, Paul will tell you that it took him more than a year of constant performance to make the routine "cook."
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
|||||||||
|
rklew64 Inner circle 1265 Posts
|
Wouldn't getting a combo set solve all problems and perhaps a couple of extra balls.
|
|||||||||
|
Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24315 Posts
|
Not really. The chop cup from a combo set is not really a good choice in a chop cup. It doesn't look like anything other than a regular cup from a set of cups. Most good chop cups look like some kind of drinking cup or perhaps a cup from a desk set.
The chop cup I have used for the past 40 years or so is a leather cup made by Supreme. It looks like a pencil cup from a desk set. Other chop cups look like mint julep cups, goblets, chalices, etc. The chop cup in a combo set makes sense in a combo set. It's a matter of context.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
|||||||||
|
rklew64 Inner circle 1265 Posts
|
Ok, I'm down with that. But of course everyone has their reasons and approaches to magic. All of these consensus building questions just puts you in the same place after half say chop cup and the other half for c&b. Magic is too subjective and I'll just leave it at that.
|
|||||||||
|
The Burnaby Kid Inner circle St. John's, Canada 3158 Posts
|
Quote:
On 2010-09-28 19:07, Bill Palmer wrote: I should probably mention that when I was originally mentored on the cups and balls, I was given the basic 3 cup routine and then constantly challenged into altering the parameters (ie: moving to a 2 cup routine, a 1 cup routine, a bowl routine, non-standard objects), so in a way I was learning all sorts of things at the same time. I mentioned earlier that the chop cup has an advantage in terms of clarity of effect. This could probably be expanded upon... you've got built within the chop cup (or one cup) plot the potential for a lot of different motifs. For instance, you could use dice with a dice-cup, coffee creamers with a coffee cup, a hat and a spongeball, a drink-mixer and a cherry, a mouse and its house (David Regal-style)... It would be hard to imagine trying to throw all that extra stuff into a three cup routine, since there'd be all that much more stuff to keep track of. It's worth considering that this sort of portability of motif means it's easier to personalize it. So many 3 cup routines start with the idea of "I'm going to show you a classic of magic...", and as bland as that is, the complexity of proceedings in a standard cups and balls routine means that this is probably one of the better ways to go about presenting it. Plus, Bill's point about practicality is well-taken.
JACK, the Jolly Almanac of Card Knavery, a free card magic resource for beginners.
|
|||||||||
|
Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24315 Posts
|
Perhaps this is one of the most wonderful things about the cups and balls as a category of trick. There are so many different ways it has been and can be interpreted that it provides many avenues of personalization.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
|||||||||
|
Woland Special user 680 Posts
|
Another way of acquiring some of the basic skills needed for this branch of magic, might be the "Two in Hand, One in Pocket Teach In" by Lewis Ganson. This is a "no cup" version, of course, although the incomparable Rene Lavand shows how it can be done in a simple, moving one-cup routine.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqzkGEvOOTc The curriculum that I have adopted also includes, 1) the practically no-sleight version in Mark Wilson's Cyclopedia, 2) Don Alan's Chop Cup Routine, 3) the Hocus Pocus routine as refined by Bill Palmer. From there, one could go on to the many different variations, including Lee Kebler's Out of Sleight, the Loomis routine, and KF Gunn's elegant innovation. Respectfully submitted, Woland |
|||||||||
|
panlives Inner circle 2087 Posts
|
Quote:
On 2010-09-28 19:07, Bill Palmer wrote: I urge everyone accessing this post to re-read the above thoughts by Bill Palmer. He wrote something similar in a previous thread and by following his advice, my fragmented routine coalesced into a tighter, cleaner, more presentable effect. Until I heeded Bill’s counsel, I had no idea that my pet routine was overstaying its welcome.
"Is there any point to which you would wish to draw my attention?"
"To the curious incident of the dog in the night-time." "The dog did nothing in the night-time." "That was the curious incident," remarked Sherlock Holmes. |
|||||||||
|
RogueMD Regular user 133 Posts
|
Thank you all for your suggestions... wonderful diversity of opinions!
My inclination was to lean towards a (basic) chop cup routine as I could focus on the loads and choreography of movement. As Mr Palmer pointed out as well, I would have to "get to the point" which also is important. (lets face it... some of these routines are worse than mind-numbing!). The counter-argument I saw to my initial thoughts were using 2 (or 3) cups allowed for more mis-direction by very nature of more items to watch. If space were no object, I would think this also might be a reasonable way to go. My goal is a "classic" 3 cup routine, stand up, in-door/outdoor routine with large final loads. How I get there is still debatable... but I'm leaning towards 1,2,3 order. I'm in no hurry so I can take the longer route. So much great material out there...! Appreciate the responses all! Michael (<--- not only cards anymore!) |
|||||||||
|
DomKabala Inner circle I've grown old after diggin' holes for 2827 Posts
|
FWIW, I started out with a Chop Cup (aluminum) purchased from Paul Diamond back in early '70s. I still have it...
Cupsamagically, Dom 
We don't stop playing when we grow old...we grow old when we stop playing.
God is enough, let go, let God. Gal 2:20 "Anything of value is not easily attained and those things which are easily attained are not of lasting value."   
|
|||||||||
|
Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24315 Posts
|
I have had a number of phone conversations, fortunately a very small number, with a fellow who can do 30 minutes of different moves with the small balls, without repeating a single move. (I have actually verified this information.) Worse, he can DESCRIBE all of those moves in minute detail, and will do so without any provocation at all.
This hammered home to me an idea about the cups and balls in particular and magic in general. One of the big secrets of good magic, and actually all good art when you get right down to it, is knowing what to leave out. Another is knowing when to stop.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
|||||||||
|
panlives Inner circle 2087 Posts
|
Quote:
On 2010-09-29 11:49, Bill Palmer wrote: Bill, A lesson few learn in basic conversation, let alone magic. Thank you for another gem.
"Is there any point to which you would wish to draw my attention?"
"To the curious incident of the dog in the night-time." "The dog did nothing in the night-time." "That was the curious incident," remarked Sherlock Holmes. |
|||||||||
DLarkins New user Kingsport, TN 59 Posts
|
I've been interested in magic since the age of 5, and I don't know that anything has ever hit me any harder than the first time I saw someone perform Don Alan's chop cup routine.
Perhaps my own memory paints a more amazing picture than it actually deserved, but when I think about why I do magic, that feeling is what comes to my mind.
______________________
David L. Larkins, Ph.D |
|||||||||
| The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Ever so sleightly » » Advice sought: Starting "Cups and Balls" vs Chop (1 Likes) | ||||||||||
| Go to page 1~2 [Next] | ||||||||||
Posted: Sep 28, 2010 02:29 pm 
| [ Top of Page ] |
|
All content & postings Copyright © 2001-2024 Steve Brooks. All Rights Reserved. This page was created in 0.04 seconds requiring 5 database queries. |
|
The views and comments expressed on The Magic Café are not necessarily those of The Magic Café, Steve Brooks, or Steve Brooks Magic. > Privacy Statement < 
|