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mindpunisher
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I feel that this subject is so important that it deserves a thread on its own Here is a link to a report on dangers of hypnosis.

I didn't write it but it covers EVERYTHING that has been asked recently. You will find everything here including links to Halpern and Paul Mckenna and the fact that the court ruled that hypnosis DID trigger Schizophrenia

http://tinyurl.com/3y938sd

For those that have face book you can see a number of examples of replies from uk councils however there are many more available..They all say exactly the same thing...


http://www.facebook.com/home.php#!/topic......topic=51

And this letter from government may be of interest:

http://www.facebook.com/home.php#!/topic......topic=56

These are not my reports I don't necessarily agree with everything but most of the info contained within these links IS ESSENTIAL FOR ANYONE WHO IS CONSIDERING LEARNING HYPNOSIS especially in the UK. Don't leave yourself wide open.
TonyB2009
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I read this because I respect your views, but there was a lot of hyperbole. I lost interest when Jonathan began talking about a woman who died after a show, a death the coroner ruled not related to hypnosis. But Jonathan doesn't accept the coroner's view. No surprise.

Everything can be dangerous. I have twice seen people almost die playing in the snow. But I don't stop my kids going out in winter. I just tell them to be careful. And I am careful when I am on stage. So far no one bar myself has been hurt during one of my shows, and I am confident that will continue.
mindpunisher
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Tony read ALL the info. It applies especially to UK hypnotists.

Nothing is clear cut with hypnosis despite court rulings. Mckenna case ruled that hypnosis DID trigger Schizophrenia. Based on what you say about the dead girl you must accept that it did then trigger schitzo in the Mckenna case? Or was the court just spouting hyperbole? Or do you just pay attention to whatever supports what you want to believe?

Look at the facts and look at the ones that were sued £20k for Halpern and nearly £90k for the venue.

My personal view is that performing hypnosis in public carries huge risks and always has done especially in the UK. And selling cheap products to school kids is not helping the problem.

Like I have said before everyone believes what they want to believe until something happens.


but I cuold go on forever. I only posted these links because I know a lot of the info is correct and should be read by those intending to perform hypnosis. Its not about Royle. I don't necessarrily agree with his style but a lot of the info is good.
kissdadookie
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To be perfectly honest, the only relevant post in all three of the provided links was actually the letter from the government. From that one learns that:

Basically a performer of any kind needs liability insurance in order to get a site license and a site license is needed to perform in a public venue. This however really has no baring on the dangers of hypnosis because at least in the governments any, they don't find any real danger in hypnosis (this is supported by the very relaxed Hypnotism Act 1952 and the very little imposed regulations contained in it as well as the Licensing Act 2003 which doesn't distinguish what a performer is so you can either be a contortionist or a hypnotist, etc.). Where one starts seeing the differences is in WHO will provide the insurance (aka, the insurer, in other words, the insurance company). To the government, the insurance is non-specific apart from being a general liability insurance which is basically the same whether you are a clown or a hypnotist (Licensing Act 2003). From the way I see it, the insurance companies are the ones who are really concerned about hypnotists and not really the government. Alas, one still needs to play by the insurance companies rules in order to become insured.
mindpunisher
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Again this is not my work I don't agree with everything but there is a lot of solid info in there. in particular pay attention to the replies from local authorities on their opinion about the legality of street or impromtu hypnosis. It makes interesting reading. Anyone thinking about it or doing it should read it.


Let's Make This As Simple As Possible For Everyone..

(Especially for the Readers of this thread - http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......um=22&68 and also this thread:

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......rum=22&4 and finally this thread:

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......um=22&43


I'd love to see them try and wiggle out of this info:

Let's Make This As Simple As Possible For Everyone..

01) The 1952 Hypnotism Act - http://www.opsi.gov.uk/RevisedStatutes/A......046_en_1 this still stands as LAW in England and to Legally Perform any Hypnotist must obtain a License/Permission for a Demonstration of Hypnosis to take place at any “Public Venue” – this essentially meant any Pub, Theatre, and other venue except for Private Members Clubs until the Licensing Act 2003 Came into Play in England.

02) In 1989 “Model Conditions” were introduced which any UK Council Authority were encouraged and allowed to attach as conditions of granting a Performance/demonstration of Hypnotism License and then in 1995 there was a Government Review on Hypnosis Safety and this led to the updated 1996 Model Conditions which basically all UK Councils attach to the conditions of your performance being legal when they grant your license/permission under the 1952 Hypnotism act and these are detailed in the document at: http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.u......639.html

03) However the Licensing Act 2003 has in UK Law enlarged the meaning of “Public Venue” and its legalise interpretation so that as confirmed by most all of the 450+ UK Legal Licensing Enforcement Units, this now also covers (in their legal opinion) Private Members Clubs and also outdoor venues, town centres and also the Streets, thus making so called Impromptu Street Hypnosis ILLEGAL without the correct Licenses being applied for and in place. For those who are members of Facebook There are some very useful examples of UK Councils opinions on this at - http://www.facebook.com/?sk=messages#!/t......topic=51 and you can also see what Central Government have to say on the issue at this link: http://www.facebook.com/?sk=messages#!/t......topic=56

04) As you will notice from the above NO UK Council District will grant such permission/license to perform Hypnosis without the Hypnotist having in place the correct Public Liability & Professional Indemnity Insurance Cover which covers for whilst the volunteers are “In Trance” and such insurance cover costs anywhere from £700 up to £1,000 per year even if you’re a member of The Federation of Ethical Stage Hypnotists and/or Equity. Hence so many UK Stage Hypnotists and Most all Street Hypnotists do not have such insurance and as such are BREAKING THE LAW.

05) IN England (UK) and many other places it is Compulsory and LAW to have Public Liability and in certain cases Professional Indemnity Insurance in Place for ANY KIND OF BUSINESS OR ACTIVITY WHICH INVOLVES THE PUBLIC http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liability_insurance and also check - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insurance - the bottom line means that any Stage or Street Hypnotist or Magician & Mentalist who uses even just a bit of hypnosis in their act is BREAKING THE LAW and committing a CRIMINAL Offence if they do not have such insurance cover in place.

06) Also to not have such insurance cover will make it IMPOSSIBLE for them to get a Legal License and Permission granted by any UK Council to perform any demonstration of Hypnosis in any Public Place (which as explained above now includes in many areas Private Members Clubs and Most all Areas also includes Town Centres, Streets and Outdoor Locations thus making Street and Impromtu hypnosis ILLEGAL without such under the 1952 Hypnotism Act and also under the affects of the Licensing Act 2003 http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2003/17/contents

07) Further it is LAW IN ENGLAND that all businesses need a Written Health & Safety Risk Assessment in place http://www.cipd.co.uk/subjects/health/ge......work.htm - The fine point of law to consider here is that “employees” in legalise and UK Law can be paid or unpaid. In otherwords the Legalise (the language of UK Law which gives different meaning than the usual dictionary - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_writing ) means that even Volunteers who participate for no payment during A Stage/Street Hypnosis Show can in Legalise (UK LAW) be defined as being integral to that performance and therefore classed as employees even if they receive no payment. As such and because the Law dictates that if more than 5 Employees are being used (eg more than 5 volunteers in one stage show or one outing of Street Hypnosis which is more than likely in most all cases) then in UK Law A full detailed written Health & Safety Executive Approved Written Risk Assessment of the activities must have been completed in advance, and also at arrival at each venue a venue specific written risk assessment must be completed and these legal dated documents must be kept on file for several years as per the Legal Legislation. TO NOT DO SO IS A CRIMINAL OFFENCE.

08) The failure of any Hypnotist to have any of these elements in place before they conduct any form of Hypnosis demonstration in any location in England means that they will either be breaking Health & Safety Laws, Insurance Laws (duty of care etc) and/or the Hypnotism Act 1952 and Licensing Act 2003. And basically if anything were ever to go wrong, whether they were responsible for it or not the chances are they would still be found guilty of NEGLIGENCE and possibly also as stated already other CRIMINAL offences as well.

09) Indeed Street Hypnotists in UK would never be granted a License by most UK Councils as has been confirmed by them in writing from their Legal Departments, many of whom have confirmed that they deem Hypnosis on The Streets to BE TOO GREAT A RISK - http://www.facebook.com/?sk=messages#!/t......topic=51

10) Ironically the correct nature of Insurance Cover is now available for members of The Professional Organisation of Stage & Street Hypnotists (POSH) who have studied “The Transparency Template” Safety & Legal Training Course for just £150 Sterling a Year as per - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UH7xyqp8oiI

11) Anyone who has studied this Comprehensive Course will have learnt in-depth all of the following - http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?fusea......36692407

12) And perhaps most importantly they will learn this from an experienced Ex-Health and Safety Officer of high profile indoor and outdoor entertainments events, and also several highly experienced working professional Stage/Street Hypnotists all of whom always have and always have had the correct Licenses (where needed by law) in place, the correct insurances, risk assessments and all other elements in place. Watch this for more details - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJd1b_hojeg

13) All of the above is indeed relevant and LAW in England (UK) whether you choose to believe that Hypnosis is completely safe or you choose to examine the evidence and realise that Hypnosis indeed has many potential dangers both of a Physical and also Psychological and/or Emotional Nature.

14) The fact is HYPNOSIS IS DANGEROUS and there is very real evidence to suggest (and ins some cases prove beyond reasonable legal doubt) that Hypnosis can trigger off Schizophrenia and other mental conditions which may be lying dormant and indeed could even be a contributory factor to someone’s death. All of the easily checkable and easily researched sources can be found in the 27 Page report which can be instantly downloaded here - http://tinyurl.com/3y938sd

15) You’ll also find at the link of http://tinyurl.com/3y938sd details and proof of Legal Precedents (eg cases that have been won against UK Hypnotists) for not abiding by some, or all of the above things.

16) The bottom line is if your not abiding by all of the above and getting the correct documents and stuff in place THEN YOUR BREAKING THE LAW IN ENGLAND on many levels.

17) Indeed the areas such as Negligence and Potential Criminal Charges being taken against a Hypnotist for CRIMINAL ASSAULT apply to most all countries in the world and are explained in depth in the excellent book “Practising Safe Hypnosis” by Roger Hambleton http://www.amazon.co.uk/Practising-Safe-......99836942 - this book also details how the MCKENNA case concluded that HYPNOSIS DID MOST LIKELY TRIGGER THE SCHIZOPHRENIA.

18) Bottom Line – Whether you like it or not it’s a LEGAL REQUIREMENT (on many levels) for all of these elements to be in place in England and for most all of them to also be in place wherever you are located in the World otherwise YOU WILL BE BREAKING VARIOUS LAWS and not just those which are hypnosis and/or entertainment specific.

19) And there is only one course which truly goes into great depth and teaches all you need to know about UK Laws and Legislation and also how the Legal Ground Lies for most other places in the world and that’s THE TRANSPARENCY TEMPLATE – Which is currently available exclusively only from Russell Hall’s “Magick Enterprises” in Sheffield as per: http://magickwords.wordpress.com/about/

20) Finally for more documents, facts, evidence and discussion of the topics mentioned above those of you who have a facebook account may wish to join this facebook group - http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?topic=......9&ref=ts
kissdadookie
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Now THAT'S the way to be more credible MP.
mindpunisher
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Quote:
On 2010-09-30 10:00, kissdadookie wrote:
Now THAT'S the way to be more credible MP.


Its not my work its Alex Leroy's he has more patience and passion that I would ever have for the subject.
bobser
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Passion is one word for it I guess. Witch Hunting might be another. Clever though, I'm the wicked witch but if I make enough noise perhaps I can make the populace believe it's someone else who's the wicked witch.. Someone who is more powerful than me. Someone making more money than me. Someone making better DVD's than me. Someone who is respected more than I ever was. Someone who is not off his head like I am.
Yep, insanity brings it's own type of patience.

Hello 'Politician' and welcome to the room. When you say:
[quote]"Hypnotism IS dangerous. Not because of the hypnosis itself (which quite frankly I don't believe in) but because of the way it is often performed."
[/unquote]
I take it you simply mean that you have to be careful getting up on the stage incase you bang yer knee, yeah?
Because I think it's pretty hard otherwise to think something, which YOU don't believe in in the first place, can be dangerous. I mean, it wouldn't actually exist, therefore by definition, could not be dangerous. Unless I'm right about the banging of the knee?
Bob Burns is the creator of The Swan.
mindpunisher
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Yawn...you never read anything then Bobser? So much for that social scientist who wants to change his beliefs eh? I can see a lot of good bits of info and research. Its pity a social scientist thinks they are just noise. You ask for references and evidence I have provided a huge amount over the last day or so. But I guess to someone with such an open mind and willingness to change its just noise...or more likely denial.
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So what are you trying to say Mindpunisher that people in the UK should not do hypnosis or that you should only do it after full training?

In which case isn't Mckenna (and others) fully trained and yet got sued?

So what IS the way to be careful and stop it happening if even the best and most trained Hypnotists are getting sued? Basically what is the answer to how not to get sued?

EDIT: I mean with nutters trying to sue you for damage after the show, not people falling of stages.
Winner of the Dumbringer Award for total incompetence. (All years)
taoist
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This sales promo --whilst dissing certain UK "illegal" hypnotists -- may have already been linked somwhere on the Café, but if not some will find it interesting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJd1b_hojeg&feature=related
Nongard1
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Kinda like Goodwins Law http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

We kinda have our own varition of Goodwins law... The longer a thread goes, the greater likelyhood of it decending into a discussion of the 1952 Hypnotism act or Johnathan Royal.

On this forum when the 1952 Hypnotism Act or Alex Smith/Leroy/Royle is involked, we need to lock the thread and call it done...
Dr. Richard Nongard, Professional Hypnosis Training
Learn how to master the art of SpeedTrance, Clinical and Stage Hypnosis
catweazle
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Why?
bobser
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Richard:..... On this forum when the 1952 Hypnotism Act or Alex Smith/Leroy/Royle is involked, we need to lock the thread and call it done...

catweazle:..... why?


ANSWER: Because we're all sick to death of hearing about both 'The 1952 hypnosis act' and 'The artist with so many effing names'.
Bob Burns is the creator of The Swan.
catweazle
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O.k, understood, thx
catweazle
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Mp, in your opinion then, whose training would you recommend when it comes to hypnosis?
do you think stage hypnosis should be professionally regulated by the government, just like doctors with the GMC and dentists with the GDC?
mindpunisher
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I don't who I would recommend at this time. But I would be very careful and cautious training with anyone that tells you there are no risks to doing hypnosis. They are either inexperienced ill informed ar are lying to get your money.

I for one welcome regulation. There is some regulation in place with 1952 Act.

I think it can only be a good thing. Some of the stories Bobser has told me about hypnotists he knows only reinforces that belief.

Perhaps he will well us the story where two young kids under 10 went into hysterical tears seeing their father copulate with an inflatable sheep? And the mother horrified had take them out of the pub crying in tears leaving the father to continue...

There are irresponsable people out there who are a danger to the public.

Im not surprised some on here want to lock the thread using the feeble excuse of Royle. It was me that posted these links not him. The same person who wanted it locked is the same one that pressed me for references. Now they have them. Are they saying they are all rubbish? If they are they aren't reading them or in a state of denial. But I sincerely hope this thread stays as a source of information that people can read and make up their own minds.

I have had run ins with Alex myself. And I don't agree with everything he says but he does make some good points and has provided valuable references for anyone who wants to look into this in an objective manner. Check out the replies from thr local authorities and their view on street hypnosis for example?

No one can argue with them. But I am not recommending anything only that you stop and think about what you are getting into.
mindpunisher
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Quote:
On 2010-09-30 14:33, Shrubsole wrote:
So what are you trying to say Mindpunisher that people in the UK should not do hypnosis or that you should only do it after full training?

In which case isn't Mckenna (and others) fully trained and yet got sued?

So what IS the way to be careful and stop it happening if even the best and most trained Hypnotists are getting sued? Basically what is the answer to how not to get sued?

EDIT: I mean with nutters trying to sue you for damage after the show, not people falling of stages.


Make up your own mind. Mckenna got off because he covered his ass did it by the book. Even so he reckons it cost millions in business and his relationship. Halper got sued for 20k and the venue around 90K because he never covered his ass.

But you make up your own mind. I have my views which I apply to myself.
Anthony Jacquin
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Are his mouthpiece? Or am I thinking of the wrong hole.
Anthony Jacquin

Reality is Plastic! The Art of Impromptu Hypnosis
Updated for 2016

Now on Kindle and Audible!
mindpunisher
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Who knows what you are thinking Ant this isn't a mind reading thread but sounds like its hit a nerve. Its not like you to be so touchy?

And I have enough trouble being my own mouth piece.

So have you actually read some of the references which you have asked for. Unlike you I don't care who they come from I only care if they are worth taking a look at. And I think they are. It saved me a lot of work finding them for you myself. For what its worth I don't agree with his marketing or personal attacks against you or anybody else. He is a complete arse in resoect to that. I don't recommend his product but then I don't recommend yours either.

I am only interested in the information. Can we discuss specific items you have problems with? Whats your view on the local council's replies about their stance on street hypnosis for example?

Are they genuine in your opinion and if so will you inform those that buy your products or attend your trainings? Aparrantly he has dozens more. Do you think your students have a right to know this? So that they can make informed decisions about how they go about applying your teachings? It would seem to me if they are indeed genuine then you have a duty to inform those that you take money from.

You do care about your customers or is it just about the money?

>>>>There are some very useful examples of UK Councils opinions on this at - http://www.facebook.com/?sk=messages#!/t......topic=51 and you can also see what Central Government have to say on the issue at this link: http://www.facebook.com/?sk=messages#!/topic.php?uid=114103275276649&topic=56<<<<<
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