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gdw Inner circle 4884 Posts |
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On 2010-10-19 10:06, Dannydoyle wrote: Nothing was shown to be false Danny, and I did not ignore anything. If you read, not surprised you missed it, I mentioned I would not be putting much into posting until today. Rural/Metro may not be in Scottsdale anymore, though there was nothing provided to back up the claim as to why, not that I am disputing it, but I wouldn't be surprised if there was more to it than just not wanting to pay market wages, especially considering Rural/Metro is still working in plenty of other areas, they are, just that, working many other places. Eastside Marios no longer exists in the town where my parents live, does that mean that privately provided pseudo italian food just can't work? Care to address YOUR point being shown false there, or will you just ignore it and keep throwing around "utopia" like it's some magic all stop? Also, private fire protection in a government run system is quite different than it would be in an actual free market. It is more akin to trying to provide private food services in a country where the majority of food is socialized. It's a completely different creature than just opening a restaurant. I'm not counting on "human nature" anymore than the computer industry counts on it. I am counting on human ingenuity and competition.
"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."
I won't forget you Robert. |
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Micheal Leath Inner circle 1048 Posts |
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On 2010-10-19 10:22, gdw wrote: So, criminals would not be put in jail? Yeah good idea there. Quote:
On 2010-10-19 10:22, gdw wrote: Yeah, good luck getting the perpetrator to pay. Quote:
On 2010-10-19 10:22, gdw wrote: Good luck getting the criminals to go to work for these companies. |
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gdw Inner circle 4884 Posts |
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On 2010-10-19 13:26, Micheal Leath wrote: Good luck getting the guy who hit you with his car to pay for the damages. It would work the same way. You have a habit of not paying restitutions, you won't be able to get insurance, not without paying ridiculous premiums. In other words, crimes would follow you like credit ratings. This would likely extend well beyond just getting insurance. You don't have a reputation for paying your debts, you won't likely be getting any work, and hell, people probably won't even sell you things. Again, none of this is original to me, and has been outlined many places before.
"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."
I won't forget you Robert. |
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Micheal Leath Inner circle 1048 Posts |
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On 2010-10-19 14:25, gdw wrote: So they will just go out and commit more crimes that they will get away with. |
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MagicSanta Inner circle Northern Nevada 5841 Posts |
Gotta hand it to GDW, he at least has an idea. To often the most thought that goes into an argument is tossing out a link to someone elses idea.
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gdw Inner circle 4884 Posts |
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On 2010-10-19 14:33, Micheal Leath wrote: So, you think they would literally steal every thing they will ever use? Where will they live? They would need to steal three meals a day, or the equivalent food. They would then have to steal a fridge to keep that food, all the time risking their life should they encounter someone willing to defend their property. Man, this life of crime is starting to sound like a LOT of work. Probably far more work than just working off one's debts and legitimately purchasing goods. Thieves currently have no problem buying goods and services in he market. As such, they may steal someone's watch, and then sell it giving them money to spend elsewhere. In a system like the one I described, if they have any record of crime, then, though they may be able to sell the watch on a "black" market, the money they gain would be only useful in buying from other criminals, as no one would sell him/her anything in a "legitimate" market. This hugely limits the range of goods and services they can purchase. There's not likely to be to many grocery stores in this "criminal" market.
"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."
I won't forget you Robert. |
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gdw Inner circle 4884 Posts |
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On 2010-10-19 15:06, MagicSanta wrote: Thank you, though, as I said, I can't really take credit, these are not MY ideas. I merely agree with them. I guess I can take credit for typing them out, and trying to explain them.
"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."
I won't forget you Robert. |
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RS1963 Inner circle 2734 Posts |
I can't believe it's going on 20 pages now. It's something that is never going to work so why keep on talking about it?
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Micheal Leath Inner circle 1048 Posts |
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On 2010-10-19 15:40, gdw wrote: Sure. Why not? They are criminals, so I don't think they would care how they get things. If they don't steal it, then they would by from those who did steal it. I'm sure there would be many other ways of getting things they want or need also. Quote:
On 2010-10-19 15:40, gdw wrote: They would live in houses or wherever else they wanted to. I'm sure it wouldn't be a problem finding other criminals to live with. Maybe they had a place to live before they became criminals, so why can't they still live there? Quote:
On 2010-10-19 15:40, gdw wrote: Again, not a problem for criminals. So the only way to get a fridge is by stealing it from someone who owns one? I'm sure there are other ways to obtain a fridge. I'm sure they would figure it out. Quote:
On 2010-10-19 15:40, gdw wrote: Again, not a problem for criminals. I'm sure they would manage. |
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gdw Inner circle 4884 Posts |
Micheal, the point is that it would be so much harder to continue like that, and simply an inefficient and inconvenient way of life. As such, it would fade rapidly, especially as it is not a way of life that is indoctrinated like religion, or belief in country.
"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."
I won't forget you Robert. |
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RS1963 Inner circle 2734 Posts |
No it would not be harder for the criminals to continue like that. It would be much easier. For the non criminals on the other hand it would not be easy. But you're going to argue that too. Or are you going to prove me wrong and drop the whole argument?
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gdw Inner circle 4884 Posts |
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On 2010-10-19 16:14, RS1963 wrote: Well, that excellently formulated and argued point has stopped me in my tracks. How can I possibly refute "No it would not"?
"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."
I won't forget you Robert. |
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Micheal Leath Inner circle 1048 Posts |
It would be easier on the criminals because they could go take whatever they wanted without punishment. It would be harder on non criminals because they would be the ones being stole from and living in fear of the criminals. It would be much worse than it is now.
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RS1963 Inner circle 2734 Posts |
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On 2010-10-19 16:27, Micheal Leath wrote: Exactly Micheal but gdw will miss that point entirely. Or try to expound on why the rest of us are donkey's rear ends and how "We just don't get it" Next question will this thread hit 21 pages before the hour is up? It's 47 mins past the hour now so lets wait and see. |
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gdw Inner circle 4884 Posts |
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On 2010-10-19 16:27, Micheal Leath wrote: No they could not. People can still defend their property, which makes living as a thief a dangerous lifestyle. Also, again, you have yet to show how "everything a thief needs to live" would be available to them. Even now, no one lives exclusively by stealing. Theft is usually done as a means to an ends. A way of funding something else. That something else, to be purchased, would be scarce within any "criminal's market" and may of the desired goods, being in scarce supply, and being obtained through dangerous means, would be more costly than they would be in a legitimate market. As mentioned, anyone who was ever caught for a crime, without providing restitution to those they wronged, would likely have no purchase power in any legitimate market, and would be limited to a "criminal" market where, as mentioned, things would end up being more costly. You are probably thinking that most stolen goods are sold at a price less than that of the "market price." This usually goes for higher priced "luxury" items like watches, computers, stereos, and the like, it does NOT apply to items people "need." Especially when they are things the buyers can not get elsewhere, either due to un availability in a legitimate market, or because no one else will sell to them. This can be seen currently in drugs, not available in the legitimate market, those selling them can charge much higher prices. Also, insurance coverage demonstrates how price goes up when no one else will sell to you. A person who has a higher liability pays more for coverage from those who are willing to cover them. They do this because they know others aren't likely to cover them, so they can charge more. In a "criminal" market, necessities like food would be unavailable to criminals in the legitimate market, and as such, those selling stolen food in a criminal market would be able to charge what ever they want. Now if you are thinking about a criminal who would not buy anything in any kind of market at all, and just literally steal everything, let's think about that. They still have to undertake the danger of stealing, only far more frequently as they would need to steal EVERYTHING they use. Also, realize that in such a system, everything would be PRIVATELY owned, including roads. Anyone wanting to steal something would still need to GET to that something. I am not just talking about driving, but even walking. People would not be inclined to let known criminals onto their property, and by property, I mean even the roads, or into the mall, or store. The logistics of living as a thief in such a society become beyond ridiculous.
"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."
I won't forget you Robert. |
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RS1963 Inner circle 2734 Posts |
You mentioned a criminal market. Now just what makes you think that any criminal is going to support a market operated by their own kind? They are going to just take from them as they will continue to do from non criminal markets and homes.
Again all of this is not going to work period. You have shown nothing that would make anyone even halfway believe it would ever work. Also due to the more crime against the criminal market those wouldn't last long and would soon be shuttered. But the normal markets would still be taken by the riff raff. That also shows that the criminals would just keep on doing what they do best while the educated and hard working non criminal would have to sit back and watch all the lazy morons get what they have no rights to at all whatsoever. |
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
The government are criminal gangs: The London Firm, the Washington Crew, The Moscow Mob and so on. They steal billions if not trillions of tax payers money in one way or another every year and the sucker tax payers just keep putting them back in power and giving them their money to steal. Yes these gangs do spend some of the tax on the suckers they get the money off to keep them sweet, so what? They have being stealing tax for thousands of years. Name a government that does not steal from its people.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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gdw Inner circle 4884 Posts |
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On 2010-10-19 17:12, RS1963 wrote: Lol, actually, this " . . . what makes you think that any criminal is going to support a market operated by their own kind? They are going to just take from them as they will continue to do from non criminal markets and homes . . ." if anything, only supports my point. This simply means one less resource for criminals. Again, a large portion of theft is for profit, or funding something else. What you are saying means there would NOT likely be a market for such, thus no demand for such theft to begin with. So, by your arguments, we would ONLY be left with those who are stealing to survive. Stealing the things they need and want only for themselves. Again, these people would STILL have to deal with the issue of people defending themselves. It is FAR from a consequence free life style. Those who steal only what they will use (not items they plan on selling for example) generally do so out of survival. This type of theft would end up boiling down to food and clothing. There would be no need for a stolen car if you would not have access to any roads to drive it on, or anyone to sell it to. So, you really think that we would be terrorized by this group of riff raff stealing our sandwiches, but meanwhile claim that any black market, and as such, the crime that goes into a black market, would collapse? So, we would only really be dealing with petty theft? And THIS is what would prevent society from functioning?
"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."
I won't forget you Robert. |
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RS1963 Inner circle 2734 Posts |
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On 2010-10-19 17:33, tommy wrote: Of course that happens in all governments. BUT. Not everyone in government is a cheat a thief, rapist, child molester, Spouse abuser, prostitute,computer hacker, animal abuser, etc... In most NOT all cases but most the criminal is the minority in the government. I repeat in most cases NOT all. |
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RS1963 Inner circle 2734 Posts |
Gdw did I say anything about only having petty theft? I didn't so stop reading things into my posts that are not by any means there or implied.
Again survival or not. The unobtainable world you want would still make it much easier for the criminal morons, It doesn't matter what crime it is either o.k. does that make it clear? Any type of criminals job would be easier. |
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