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mindpunisher
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Richard Im surprised you don't get it. You seem reasonably intelligent. I don't recall anybody beingcalled a nazi although I was called a terrorist.

However if you had actually read the posts Richard then there were quite a few examples of people that had been harmed because of hypnotists. And three cases of of successful lawsuits. I was also once on TV with the medical and Dental Hypnosis association and a member of the British Medical Association representing stage hypnotists many years ago. They rattled off numerous cases they had seen where there were physical injuries and psychological problems. Now If you want to argue with the British Medical Association then that's up to you.

But lets look at this example. To be honest we don't know enough about the clip and what was rehearsed or pre arranged. However any shows that I have done have complied with ALL of the safety and legal requirements and are also insured.

People KNOW what they are coming to see and they VOLUNTEER. In fact usually I am swamped by volunteers all WANTING to be hypnotised despite seeing what others have just done before as I often ask for more volunteers for the second half of the show.

Many of these new wave amatuer dabblers will walk up to unsuspecting strangers with no knowledge of their mental state no pre-talk in uncontrolled public places with no considerations for safety and attempt a rapid induction. With almost zero training.THAT IS NOT ONLY UNETHICAL ITS ALSO DANGEROUS AND IN MY BOOKS IS ASSUALT.

Kids are doing it in school asfter buying these tacky products. I'm really surprised you just don't get Richard. In fact I'm surprised anyone that has enough intelligence to tie their shoe laces doesn't get it.


But to go back to the original point. I have to agree to play around with "fake" inductions with no knowledge of hypnosis is waiting for an accident to happen.

Richard if no one was ever injured or if hypnosis has no danger why do you subscribe to safety training and insurance?

And why are you now saying there is no danger? It doesn't have something to do with selling products does it? Because apart from that it makes no sense to me. Why bother with safety training or insurance?

Like many stage hypnotists say you can't make somebody do something they really don't want to do is basically rubbish in order to get volunteers. We both know some people will do almost anything you ask them too.

And by the way there were a few people I know of that bought tickets and came to all three of my shows. One of them was a VOLUNTEER. Not everybody wants to see someone pretend they are being tickled or blowing bubbles as a main part of their show. My audiences would ask for their money back.

Some people want to see something actually funny. If you watch any of the clips just listen to the audience. What specifically is unethical?
mindpunisher
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If anybody is Unethical it is those that punt tacky cheap products whilst claiming there is no danger whastsoever. With no warnings to those that buy them. Its not only unethical its criminal.
JonChase
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Mind Punisher,

Can I ask a simple question.. Who are you?
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Jon Chase



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JonChase
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Hi Pheonix

Nice video.

I think you did miss an opportunity maybe to get more out of the thing. I am not sure you caught the moment he went in and could have dropped half the 'induction' and perhaps stuck him to the girl or something.

Other than that I don't see how or why ethics were involved but do see Reg's point of view. Take the thing away from the fact you know people like Anthony whom when I taught him stage hypnosis in 2004 and could see was really destined for great things - and others from the meca of hypnosis training for some reason - Vegas - take it away and there is an obvious problem...

Let me tell you a story.

About 15 years ago I was invited along to a mentalist evening by a friend who we'll call Fred to save embarrassment. As part of his show Fred invited a father and daughter up on stage to perform what I believe is called the 'Shoulder tap' routine... please forgive me if you know what I am on about and have superior magical knowledge. Basically you blindfold the girl in this case. Do a lot of confusing waffle about ""Feeling the air flowing around their body, the warmth and feel of their clothes and then tell them to 'tune in' to the other person on stage while you 'position' them etc. Then you go over to the other person after establishing the 'connection' and touch the bloke or whoever on the shoulder. The reveal is of course to n blindfold the girl and ask her what she felt which of course was the 'Tap on the Shoulder.' It's a fabulous way of filling ten minutes.

On that night however he took the blindfold off the girl and it was a minute [long time on stage] before he could get her to speak to him. And then when he did she seemed disoriented and so he joked about being "Too connected" and got them both off stage.

After the show I wondered over to her table and did a quick wake up with her before going back stage to chat with Fred. I asked him what he thought of the girl and he shrugged, "Oh I've had three or four go weird on me like that" he said. He had no idea how easy it is to hypnotise but more worryingly he had no idea that he was doing that.

Now Reg will tell you no doubt that the first time he hypnotised someone it was likewise by accident and I think his concern is that what would happen if someone had a bad experience, especially on live TV, as I could happen.
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kissdadookie
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Just FYI Jon, the routine you mentioned (Shoulder tap) is Banachek's PK Touches routine. Excellent routine that can go in so many directions, quite brilliant Smile
JonChase
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Thank you Kiss, please excuse my ignorance. Smile
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quicknotist
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Haha! Ouch. You got me there Jon...
My first STAGE induction was indeed a very similar accident and a wasted opportunity.
(I'm not Fred, but I do know who Jon is talking about.)
Mine happened during a performance of Lee Earle's Bar Code gag (with kicker) of all things.
I was already a hypnotherapist at the time and had hypnotized many people but STILL didn't realise how easily so-called instant inductions can sometimes happen.

Ok. I'm sufficiently embarrassed now. Can we delete this thread?






Quote:
Now Reg will tell you no doubt that the first time he hypnotised someone it was likewise by accident and I think his concern is that what would happen if someone had a bad experience, especially on live TV, as I could happen.
JonChase
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LOL Reg - you started it!
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mindpunisher
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Wht be embarresed Reg? It just illustrates your point. It makes you more credible and the point you make more valid. It also tells us why you felt it was worth starting this thread.

I'm glad you did.
quicknotist
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Yeah. The embarrassment was a fleeting thing. Passed in just a few seconds.
Reg

Quote:
On 2010-10-13 15:16, mindpunisher wrote:
Wht be embarresed Reg? It just illustrates your point. It makes you more credible and the point you make more valid. It also tells us why you felt it was worth starting this thread.

I'm glad you did.
mindpunisher
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I know I have had more than my share of dodgy moments especially at the begining of my career. It was more luck than anything I never had an accident. Times where people standing in a row were going into trance much quicker than I anticipated and almost fell over in areas where there were tables and chairs.

Hypnosis in an entertainment context has so many variables even with loads of experience its still possible things can go wrong.

I also once on a hypnotherapy training cringed at the trainer who was demonstrating a rapid induction. I knew from the way his body was positioned that if this guy went fast he could fall and hurt himself. Since there was no way he could support him.

The guy went out instantly and just as I thought the trainer had no control over him falling. He was caught by another person who was standing next to him. It wasn't planned that he would be caught by the other person he just happened to be positioned there.
Owen Mc Ginty
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Quote:
On 2010-10-12 15:57, quicknotist wrote:
But you do know the suggestion/hypnosis was unnecessary for this effect?
In my eyes, it was an accident and one which exposed the mentalist's inexperience with hypnosis when faced with a "good subject."
Note, the presenter didn't nod the first time. A sign that the mentalist wasn't in control of the situation, probably due to the fact no parameters had been set up beforehand and again indicating an accidental induction.


Can someone explain why the fact that the presenter didn´t nod the first time, is an indicator of the mentalist not being in control of the situation?

- I thought that if the presenter were hypnotised by this stage, then surely he WOULD have nodded? and thus the fact that the presenter didn´t nod indicated that was wasn´t actually hypnotised when requested to nod?

Thanx in advance.
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quicknotist
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Hi Owen,
You're a hypnotist right? You really think he hadn't "gone?"

I feel I've commented enough on the video I posted but I would like to continue speaking about this in general terms.

Hypnotized subjects not following direction/suggestion can happen for all kinds of reasons.
In my opinion, often not following suggestion is not necessarily an indication a subject isn't hypnotized, just that it isn't managed properly.

It can happen when the performer hasn't set up the parameters of the relationship well enough beforehand or has let the relationship slip.
You need to constantly manage that relationship and make sure they continue to do what you suggest. Yes, even a simple nod.
You can see how it could be problematic if you let it slide and then later say "sleep and stand" and they fall over, or "stay in your chair" and they don't.
It's what Louchlin would have called a "violation."
Then again, it might be a case of you not being specific and clear enough in your suggestion or an inability to follow through on the part of the subject.
However, failure to do what you suggest at any point during the process should be immediately addressed.

I have also heard about a case where a whole bunch of people failed to "wake up" at the end which caused a minor media frenzy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9zKfuztFX4
A lot of performers casually throw around that old favourite the "all hypnosis is self-hypnosis" line without clearly demonstrating who is really in control.
I can see how trying to wake them up after you've told them they've hypnotized themselves might just be a problem!

But hey, all this is just part my opinion, part safety-paranoia and mostly how I like to teach others.

Your mileage may vary.

Reg

Quote:
On 2010-10-14 03:32, Owen Mc Ginty wrote:
Quote:
On 2010-10-12 15:57, quicknotist wrote:
But you do know the suggestion/hypnosis was unnecessary for this effect?
In my eyes, it was an accident and one which exposed the mentalist's inexperience with hypnosis when faced with a "good subject."
Note, the presenter didn't nod the first time. A sign that the mentalist wasn't in control of the situation, probably due to the fact no parameters had been set up beforehand and again indicating an accidental induction.


Can someone explain why the fact that the presenter didn´t nod the first time, is an indicator of the mentalist not being in control of the situation?

- I thought that if the presenter were hypnotised by this stage, then surely he WOULD have nodded? and thus the fact that the presenter didn´t nod indicated that was wasn´t actually hypnotised when requested to nod?

Thanx in advance.
mindpunisher
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I once had someone not wake up. After the show I discovered she had two hearing aids one in each ear. She responded to nothing. Her boyfriend turned up the sound on them
and her whole body twitched. I sat with her for 45 mins. When she awoke she didn't recognise her boyfriend and thought she was on a shopping trip with her parents. It took another 15 mins or so to bring her fully back. To make matters worse the venue was being used for the opening night of Rob Roy and all the starts were coming. And all the workmen were working around me to prepare the stage for the next nights event.

Imagine a clip like the one Reg just put up on tv in the UK? Worst still imagine it was a young untrained impromtu hypnotist that had accosted a victim in a public place? No insurance no permission no training? Worst still if they fell and hurt themselves really bad or were sufferring from a mental problem?

Anyone that understands the media in this country and with an ounce of common sense would tell you of the damaging impact it would make. Then they would dig into everything and it would be all over the press etc etc. And then you will hear of other reports.

And you think this will never happen?
JonChase
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LOL MP. Insurance doesn't protect anyone from careless incompetence or stupidity, neither does training for that matter. And what we saw wasn't either was it?

At worst is was a missed opportunity.

So tell me, if she couldn't hear you to wake her up - how on earth did she hear you to get her under?
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Jon Chase



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mindpunisher
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No but it makes a great media piece Jon you miss the whole point totally. IT PROTECTS THE HYPNOTIST I CAN'T BELIEVE YOU DON'T GET THAT.You think the media wouldn't jump all over that? Or the person in question wouldn't use that in a court should they go see a lawyer? Are you really that niave?

Having insurance won't stop you killing someone by crashing into their car. Are you suggesting we should drive cars without insurance? I honestly can't believe the thought processes on here.

Also no insurance will put any venue or bar at risk that knowingly allows these impromtu unlicensed event to happen. Pavillion in Glasgow was sued for around 90k because Haplern didn't have the correct insurance.

I have no idea about the girl. Perhaps her batteries were low? that's the point you don't know and you never can know for sure. Either way it took a LOT of people management to keep everybody calm.


She obviously didn't hear all my warnings about NOT coming up if you they any medical issues. Again how would the media react to someone who had serious medical issues injured in an impromtu "attack"?

Someone with little people skills even less knowledge or skill? It would make good news the journo's would love it.
Owen Mc Ginty
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@ quicknotist - I wouldn´t go so far as to call myself a hypnotist just yet, and I´m not debating wether or not the presenter was "gone" at the first request for a head nod.

I´m genuinely interested in what tells you he was "gone" by that stage though (from my own learning perspective). The quality of the image on the video isn´t as clear as being right there to observe, but his eyes do look a bit "spaced out". Is this the "tell tale sign" that you picked up on? Is there more that I am missing?
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kissdadookie
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MP is ranting again. Tsk tsk Smile
mindpunisher
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Owen I think Reg might on the cautious side. When youve been doing hypnosis for a while you recognise the non verbals of trance. But I think really the point he is making (correct me if I am wrong Reg) is that some people do go into trance very easy. And some people when they go they go like a ton of bricks. Seriously they go flying if you don't know what your doing or aren't prepared for it.
Owen Mc Ginty
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I see your point, I wasn´t looking for it the first time I watched the video, wasn´t expecting it to happen so easily.
I´ve never seen someone go so fast, guess I´ll have to keep playing the numbers game for a while.
Any tips for when the subject stops responding much appreciated, as so far I´ve had people follow instructions badly, but any non-response has been due to them not being hypnotized (at least I think so).
If you never fail, you're not trying hard enough.
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