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quicknotist
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I know the social clubs were often rough Jon, but generally that's not where the audiences are going for their entertainment these days.

I suggested visiting clubs on the circuit, not to see how tough they are, but to see where audiences are going these days and to see what does and doesn't get their attention entertainmentwise.

I wouldn't call Edinburgh easy either. Most people are lucky to break even. It's been getting harder since the late 90s when some of the big agents like Avalon (with lots of TV comics) commercialized it and raised the bar with their publicity and promotional material. Standing on street corners with photocopied flyers (like used to happen) just doesn't cut it there anymore.

I've also seen comics slaughtered in places like the Fringe Club where the audience was supposedly made up only of other performers!

What's happening with you and Ken Webster? Wasn't there talk of you getting together for a training course at some stage? Is it still happening?

He's off touring soon with a nice set, from what I see. I wonder how that's selling?
quicknotist
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Peter Powers and Andrew Newton are the two names everyone knows here in NZ.
Peter Powers is on TV a fair bit and Andrew Newton tours here just about every year.
Paul McKenna is only known for his "serious" stuff.
JonChase
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Hi Reg,

Yes Ken and I are doing a Masterclass in November in blackpool http://thisishypnosis.com

I don't know about where audiences are 'going'. I'm an entertainer and go where I fecking well take them, that's stage craft. I've worked small venues and big venues, young audiences, old audiences. It really doesn't matter, what matters is what you do and your flexibility in being able to do everything depending on audience feed back and to adlib enough so that you can just do your job and entertain regardless of the audience.

If I go to Edibourgh I'd go as a Professional Entertainer. My publicity would be top notch and distributed at least as well as any other show. My PR would be excellent to the point where I would attract my aimed at demograph. I think if you go into any business doing it on the cheap then you'll get a poor return on a poor investment.

Take Ken Webster.

He now uses two huge screens on stage and interacts his victims, sorry volunteers with what's happening on the screen. It's full on multimedia and it isn't cheap and you know what? He makes a profit because he draws, because he spends.

He'll be teaching all about that in Blackpool with me.
Smiles

Jon Chase



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kissdadookie
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Jon is right. Cheap marketing will only draw cheap results. Proper marketing will get them through the door in which the rest is up to your actual talents Smile
mindpunisher
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Well I had teams of people on the streets giving out very expensively designed flyers. I was on a 25,000 database email list. I was playing at a major venue I was on their website with all the top bands in one section. I was beside people like ricky chervais chubby brown jimy carr on the other. We used over a 1000 posters full colour glossy designed by a top advertising agencey. We had ads in the local press...etc etc

It was ALL paid for by HMV. But to get prime spots during the festival poster sights cost many thousands of pounds. Its just not economical. I doubt very much if Ken could make a profit in the festival. Its a loss leader for those tv acts that want to further their career on TV. But I am always wlling to be proved wrong. I just think there are far more sure ways to make a profit. I think one of Ken's strengths is he knows how to connect with his market.

If you honestly think you can make a profit at edinburgh festival I think your dreaming. With a eat the onions show? No chance Jon but please prove me wrong. Unless of course you find a small pub to fill.

By the way some of the very top hypnotists have tried and failed to conguer edinburgh even outwith the festival. I have only ever seen Hugh lennon come back and do the festival for a number of years. And that was in the height of hypnosis shows popularity and he did a small pub not a theatre.

I sold out edinburgh odeon on and off for nearly three years at just under 1000 seats yet powers failed at the same venue. So did Newton. And they were much bigger names than I was.

Actually 300 seats is VERY good for the Festival. With 3000 shows or more the majority go to the wall.

But I will look out for you next year ;-)

Ive lived in Edinburgh all my life so I guess Im pretty used to the festival. I just can't see the attraction of doing shows in Edinburgh at that time of year unless you are one of the tv acts.

I used to avoid it and sell out the odeon in October when the students were back and there was no compeition. And with cheap marketing. I once sold out the Odeon spending about £500 on marketing for 6 weeks @ 4k a night.

Ive seen Kens shows and he has put a lot of work into them. He deserves the success he has. But the funniest parts are still the "trance personalities" the people themselves doing the same old things. There were a few funny things using the screens but again its the people who are funny.

I like Ken though I hope he has a great tour next year.
JonChase
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You know MP you're forgetting the one thing people do forget, which is quite an omission considering where we are discussing this.

If I see a show advertised nowadays I'll have a look at youtube to see if A: I want to see the show and B: if the thing will look worth it.

I think Kens site and videos look very professional and his well filmed and edited shows look excellent in the genre.

Too many 'professionals' shove up badly shot and edited 'bits' from shows,often shot in badly staged and lit venues and then the sections they pick that they consider funny is enough to dissuade the vast majority of people from going.

I'm sure you agree it isn't just how much you pay but also what you say must also be a factor to whether or not you get an audience at all?

Smiles
JonChase
Smiles

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mindpunisher
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I think there are a number of factors. For one thing there are trends in popularity for example. Hitting something on an upward trend can help as opposed to hitting something coming to the end of a trend. Then there is timing. Who are your market and when is the best time to hit them? ive always thought that the biggest market for hypno shows were 18 to 30 year olds? Students and night clubbers. Plus ordinary working folk and not arty as the majority are who go to the festival. So especially after studying many hypnotists who came to edinburgh and other shows I came to the conclusion late October after freshers when we have thousands of new students that still have money in their pocket. Plus the other parts that make up a good hypnotism audience are well over their summer holidays and xmas is still far away. Plus there isn't a lot of competition.

In the Odeon I was more successful than Halpern Powers and Newton. I know because Halperns manager called them up and that's what they told him. It was partly haing the right show at the right time but also knowing my home town very well and factoring that in.

I agree with you Ken has a nice site and it will be a factor these days. But you know my clips were enough to get HMV to pay for everything during the festival. They were also tlking about putting it on tour if it went down big enough. But the problem was this - I had to go during the Festival or they would've went cold on the idea. Which really ****ed me off because I think it would've sold out easily late October. And I may have been in with the backing of a majot player. But then again they were really awful to work with.

If anybody is going to do Edinburgh do it then keep well away from the Festival. Why would you want to do it then? I might have been able to sell out the hmv 600 seats if I had thrown enough money at it. But whats the point? No point if your doing it just to break even or lose money?

At least that's how I see it.
kissdadookie
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I think playing big major festivals and breaking even is an excellent way to go. What are you really losing there? A day of sitting around? You're not exactly losing money, you've lost only a day out of the week, and now you have another major event you can feature/claim in your promos. It's not always about making money (unless the major event coincides with a high paying gig on the same day and time). Heck, losing a bit of money may also be ok as long as performing at the event is not going to make you bleed out.
JonChase
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Kiss. Professional doesn't have to mean it's just about the money. Actually for me it has always been about the art of theatre and using hypnosis to entertain not just to make cash.
Smiles

Jon Chase



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mindpunisher
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I respect your thing about it being art. But for me it was pure business. I really don't have luxury to do it for arts sake. I only had a go because I thought it may be a chance to make money. Yes of course art entertaining comes into it too. But it had to make money for me.

I did believe that it might be time to bring back theatre shows since most of the youngsters I know had never seen one. And as the shows went they were totally blown away just with having their hands stuck together. But Late October would've been the real test. But that never happened for a number of reasons.

But I do believe if Ken's tour is successful then its definate proof that it time is right. And I may have another go on my own. HMV wanted nearly 3k a night for a six hundred seater!

Jon you must be a lot wealthier than me! actually at the moment that's not difficult.

But even so...if wanted to do it for art and entertainment I would do it at a time where I can reach my most appreciative audience. And in Edinburgh I believe its around about now late October rather than the Festival. Being a native local the Festival is a bit of a pain. Most of us stay away from the city centre while its on.
JonChase
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MP. I've always thought the market for hypnosis was 12 to 92 year olds. I don't believe it's about trends unless you produce a show that isn't flexible enough.

That goes for all the entertainment arts.

I could be wrong of course.

There's lots of people out there many with the traditional get em up, bang em under, embarrass the s**t out of them approach, a few with a more staged approach, and now some with the new wave Mr Brown stuff. And very few who can do all of them. There are people are good technicians who can't preform, and performers who are bad technicians.

I think you need to be all things really then 'trends' don't really affect you.
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mindpunisher
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You have a point about being adaptable. But then again the Brown stuff is largely popular by Brown himself. There aren't too many Browns around. Brown is a brand all by himself. While you might be right about 12 to 92 years olds I think its dependant upon where you are? Perhaps a holiday town like Blackpool or others can cater for such a wide age group. But I think elsewhere you need to target.

Certainly here its the 18-30 group although you will get much older people at our shows.

And having been involved in marketing apparently the worst thing you can do is try and be everything to everybody.

My feeling right or wrong was that the Brown stuff is starting wane or at least has peaked. And that the natural prpgression would be hard core full on hypnosis. My young nephews had never seen me perform. They think Derren is great. They weren't that impressed when they heard their old uncle was doing hypnosis.But after they saw the show they were totally blown away.

Of course its not a fool proof analsys of young people they are my nephews.

You might be right about trends. But also if you know how to recognise them you can ride them.
quicknotist
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OK Jon,
Don't go to comedy clubs then.
Just ignore what's been said about the target market and advice about Edinburgh.
Good luck filling your shows with 12-17 and 31-92 year olds who look for your clips online.
"New Show - Input?!"
What was it you really wanted?
;)

Reg
catweazle
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Does anyone here know what happened to Rajan and his evil hypnotists?
was it just put together for TV or is it a real act?
quicknotist
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http://www.themagicman.co.uk/index.htm

Quote:
On 2010-10-14 17:02, catweazle wrote:
Does anyone here know what happened to Rajan and his evil hypnotists?
was it just put together for TV or is it a real act?
catweazle
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Cheers!, he has a pretty impressive client list, but there is no mention of his hypnosis act, just magic, there is the CH4 trailer though featuring hypno girl mmmmmmm, now there's a show id go to watch.
mindpunisher
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Quote:
On 2010-10-14 13:20, kissdadookie wrote:
I think playing big major festivals and breaking even is an excellent way to go. What are you really losing there? A day of sitting around? You're not exactly losing money, you've lost only a day out of the week, and now you have another major event you can feature/claim in your promos. It's not always about making money (unless the major event coincides with a high paying gig on the same day and time). Heck, losing a bit of money may also be ok as long as performing at the event is not going to make you bleed out.


Do you know how much work and stress is involved trying to break even? Do you nkow how much personal money you would have to risk to break even? And don't forget the majority lose out BIG TIME. if I were to take on HMV myself to the original plan I would've had to risk 18k! I would've lost out big time.


I spoke to a couple tv magicians Barry and Stuart. I asked them if their reviews from the festival did them any good after it finished. They told me that outwith the festival their reviews meant nothing. They performed 28 nights during the festival and breaking even (I don't know if they did this year bobser will know)was a good result if they could get it! 28 nights in the hope that somebody else will book them somewhere else. Im sorry but that just isn't my idea of fun.

Now as a hypnotist you aint gonna be picked up by tv. However if you are a smart hypnotist and the market is right you can make loads of money working smart. I love the saying "never hunt with the hunters". Whenever you see a crowd go in the opposite direction. Hit hard when your market can be reached.

This is not a word of lie but do you know during the festival I spent five solid days putting posters all over town. They were all gone in less than two after! And when the festival reached its height posters didn't last half an hour. I had to give up. If it wasn't for the the access to mailing lists and other things that HMV had I am pretty sure we would have closed the show.

CVontrast that with October. I would put up posters in every part of town for six weeks prior to the show and maintain those sites for a full six weeks. Once the first show started wouldn't need to put up any more. The crowd and word of mouth took my shows to full capacity forsix weeks then started to dwindle over the next four or more. just under 1000 seats. I still think it can be done I just don't have the money to put at risk just now.

Keep away from the big festivals no one ever does it a second year in a row. Hypnotists I mean. Except for Hugh lennon way back inthe late 90s but that was a small pub. He still does the Uni's up here but has not been back to the festival in a very long time.

Basic marketing 101 - do your market research. Same as belief I carry about doing shows - its not about you its about your volunteers - its not about you its about your market.
kissdadookie
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Fair enough MP. As an aside, I love Barry and Stuart!
JonChase
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Quote:
On 2010-10-14 16:30, quicknotist wrote:
OK Jon,
Don't go to comedy clubs then.
Just ignore what's been said about the target market and advice about Edinburgh.
Good luck filling your shows with 12-17 and 31-92 year olds who look for your clips online.
"New Show - Input?!"
What was it you really wanted?
;)

Reg


Reg "Show input" not bloody marketing advice.

I could go into a comedy club, suss my audience in five and restructure my show on the fly to suit the audience.

Of course were I doing a self promote I'd target at My preferred market. I'd even profile them as you well know from doing my Svengali system, If I had wanted marketing though I wouldn't be here I'd be on Frank Kerns site, ;-)
Smiles

Jon Chase



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mindpunisher
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>>I could go into a comedy club, suss my audience in five and restructure my show on the fly to suit the audience.<<

You have to have the audience there first Im sure even Frank Kern would be say your doing it back to front. The input of your show should be based upon the market your targeting. I would've thought.

How can anyone give you input if they don't know who your aiming at? And someone with your experience shouldn't need any input I'm sure. But it looks like you do need input about your targeting.
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