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JonChase
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LOL MP

Actually Frank would say that. If your marketing wasn't already done.

You know Last show I did in Bristol the average distance travelled by the people who came was 90 miles. I had 27 Londoners, 6 from the East Midlands and three from the states. More than half of the others came by coach from Exeter some 76 miles away.

I guess if you have a following you can market differently than relying on street trade and locals. It's a different mindset.

And you are right. I don't need input as such although something like this or that element would be good, the only two who actually read my request I think were Bobser and Anthony.

I guess I was just making sure the approach is radically different from my peers. The show is already written and I'm now in the process of building expectation and anticipation.

The target is to earn significantly after an 18 months building phase initially supported by my seminar and training business and about 3 other projects.

When I do Edinburgh it won't be for profit at all, just for the hell of it.
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Jon Chase



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mindpunisher
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>>>When I do Edinburgh it won't be for profit at all, just for the hell of it.<<<<

Well "Hell" is a good descriptor. 27+6 is only 30! I had a few people come from the states to see me in Edinburgh. I know of one guy from just outside London came to see the first and the last show. He couldn't get to Edinburgh for the 2nd. But he made twio journey's that's nearly 1000 miles! I don't know how far the ones from the states came from.

And I had no following. It was the first show I had done in 10 years. I didn't have a following from training or mentoring. They saw my clips on youtube.

>>>>And you are right. I don't need input as such although something like this or that element would be good, the only two who actually read my request I think were Bobser and Anthony.<<<<

Yes and they were probably the least valuable posts.

Well Im glad your doing something totally different from your peers. Then again most of the better hypnotists stopped feeding onions and doing the missing finger routines in the 80s! I have never ever done them in 20 years of being a hypnotist.

I wish you well jon good luck with your projects .
JonChase
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Oh right. So if I stop then I'd join the better group all not doing the onions and numbers - I don't make fingers disappear. So using that logic, and I consider myself an okay performer, better no, good enough certainly, using that logic I'd better continue with the onion s and stuff because then I'll be doing everything other hypnotists are not. Thanks for the heads up MP.
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Jon Chase



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mindpunisher
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That's it exactly jon.... if it works for you then do it. Im just teasing. And I do wish you well in your projects.
bobser
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What an arsehole of a post.
Bob Burns is the creator of The Swan.
mindpunisher
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Well if you can't beat them? Join them. There are plenty of arshole posts on here Bobser what actully attracted you to that one?
JonChase
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Quote:
On 2010-10-16 19:42, bobser wrote:
What an arsehole of a post.


Which one Bobster, I thought mine were all pretty much carp [re-arrange the letters to fit.] ;-)
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Jon Chase



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bobser
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Quote:
On 2010-10-15 15:40, mindpunisher wrote:

Jon Chase: "... the only two who actually read my request I think were Bobser and Anthony".

MP: "Yes and they were probably the least valuable posts".


THAT was the arsehole post I referred to.
Why were these valueless posts?
C'mon Brian, get a grip. This might be a chatroom but does that mean we have to be devoid of manners or decent curtesy to one and other?
Bob Burns is the creator of The Swan.
JonChase
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Thanks Bob.

You know...

Everyone is singing the praises of Derren Brown. That is becuase he has hit a need not a niche. People want THEATRE! At least that is how I read it.

And no MP, I don't just mean using a big stage, I mean they want more than being made to think or just being crusty pie in the face, or in some cases the genitals. They want to be Entertained.

I don't think you find a niche and chase it.. although I should be quite good at that. I think you should build your own style and let people find you. That is certainly what happens with all the really big names in entertainment.

And no, I'm not talking about the TV boys but people like Ken Dodd, Jethro, Chubby Brown... yes their audience is falling but so is everyone's at the moment. They have their followers. So it isn't about prostituting the market, it's about refining your art and style and building your following. It always has been and always will be.
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mindpunisher
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Quote:
On 2010-10-17 19:18, bobser wrote:
Quote:
On 2010-10-15 15:40, mindpunisher wrote:

Jon Chase: "... the only two who actually read my request I think were Bobser and Anthony".

MP: "Yes and they were probably the least valuable posts".


Why were these valueless posts?
C'mon Brian, get a grip. This might be a chatroom but does that mean we have to be devoid of manners or decent curtesy to one and other?


I said least value not valueless.. I get your point Bobser. But what I was reffering to is the other posts could save somebody losing a lot of money. Especially with the Edinburgh Festival. From somebody that's lived their all their life and has done the festival. Wasn't meant to be a dig at anyone.
mindpunisher
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Quote:
On 2010-10-17 20:07, JonChase wrote:
Thanks Bob.

You know...

Everyone is singing the praises of Derren Brown. That is becuase he has hit a need not a niche. People want THEATRE! At least that is how I read it.

And no MP, I don't just mean using a big stage, I mean they want more than being made to think or just being crusty pie in the face, or in some cases the genitals. They want to be Entertained.

I don't think you find a niche and chase it.. although I should be quite good at that. I think you should build your own style and let people find you. That is certainly what happens with all the really big names in entertainment.

And no, I'm not talking about the TV boys but people like Ken Dodd, Jethro, Chubby Brown... yes their audience is falling but so is everyone's at the moment. They have their followers. So it isn't about prostituting the market, it's about refining your art and style and building your following. It always has been and always will be.


Derren started of very niche on channel 4 and has adapted as he has gone along. So much so that he has left behind a lot of his original followers. You can't please everybody. I think Derren and his team understand the market/s and its no accident they have lasted so long. But that's just my guess. Or they could've just been "lucky".

I love the guys you mention and agree 100%. Although I have no Idea why they are failing. It could be trends are different. You could blame it on the recession yet Brows's shows are packed at the moment. Bands are packed out at expensive prices. I just saw on TV Russel Brand (who I don't like) pack out a HUGE venue like the O2.

So people are still being entertained and still paying for it. They just seem to have moved on from the guys you mention. Many top performers the very best will come in and out of fashion a couple of times during their lives Bob Monkhouse, Frankie Howard two classics both did as will most. And then there was benny Hill another giant who's style went out of fashion and was dumped finally.

Trends fashion it does have an input. And we all have a different idea about whats entertaining and whats not. Some people pay to see pitbulls fight.Plus the "market" evolves changes and shifts. Only the odd few can sustain all these changes.

But even these top guys are marketed they are commodities to the businessmen who promote them. Marketing is still a vital component. Exposure on TV for the bigger guys etc.

A lot of the success behind hypnosis for example is securing the right venues at the right time. There is a reason why Ken stops in Nov for example. Because the market in Blackpool changes over these months. Powers for example has done the same venue in Glasgow for 20 years. Although I don't know how popular it is. But he still does two or three small runs every year. Yet he never made it in Edinburgh. And now I believe he is big in Australia. He only does glasgow in the uk.

Understanding your market locking in key positions is all part of it. And timing.
mindpunisher
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The other thing about Derren from what I have heard (if its true) was that the TV show was planned before he came on board. They were looking for someone to play his character. So to some degree the whole thing was manufactured. And to be accepted by channel 4 I guess some sort of market research would have been done. I can't see them filming and using up expensive air time with no research of some kind.

Although no one can argue that Derren was a great choice its possible that a number of other choices may have worked the same. The timing was right the concept was right. Try launching another Derren now. So from what I understand Derren didn't build a following from scratch as a mind reader he was launched onto tv to "play a part" that was created for the show.

And partly what I am suggeting the same can be done for hypnotists because that's exactly what I did way back in 1993 because of timing nad market research plus the right venue I was able to sell out 1000 seats venue and continued to do so for three years. Unfortunately back then I couldn't find a manager to help me replicate it all over the country. And I was a niave yougster with a very brass neck. But not stupid. But you still need the breaks. You still need the promoters behind you. You can only do so much on your own.

And to some degree in life in general it is not always the best that get on its the ones that get the breaks. We all need a break now and then.
catweazle
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Your right about Derren being chosen, I went on a JR hypno course a few years ago and JR seemed to think derren was based on him, even down to the hair colour,he seemed pretty miffed about not being the chosen one imo lol.

I also think Jon is spot on regarding Theatre, in the past 15 years people have found they can entertain themselves at home, Playstations, satellite & cable tv became the norm, then followed the internet boom. I think people need something of an event that they cant get at home to make them get off their butts and make the effort to go out these days, another thing is the smoking ban - it does put people off going out.
kissdadookie
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Derren's TV show was originally offered to Andy Nyman. Andy Nyman was the person who then suggested that Derren should be on the show and that he (Nyman) will do the consulting work. The reason was because Andy Nyman wanted to keep his magician/mentalist persona separate from his acting persona. Nyman basically did not wish to be typecast as a magician/mentalist in future acting roles.

This is actually all explained on the 3-disc set called Get Nyman put out by Alakazam. Interestingly enough, the Svengali demo that Marvin's Magic uses and teaches to all new demo persons at the store/kiosks was originally created by Andy Nyman. Speaking of Andy Nyman creations, a LOT of Derren Browns routines you see on the specials/stage shows as well as on the TV series, are actually very very Andy Nyman-ish. What I mean is that if you are familiar with Andy Nyman's material, you will see that the unique characteristics of a Andy Nyman routine is clearly evident in what Derren performs (contains a narrative and drama and the methods are multi-layered with a lot of red herrings).
mindpunisher
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I agree about the theatre that's why I jumped into do a small theatre run/test at the Festival. However as Jon also points out many of the old established acts are failing. So if you are going to do theatre its even more important to get your marketing timing right. I believe if I had had the opportunity to do it now this month over the Halloween period I would've sold out the place at least 4 times. Even when the posters arrived from the printers the manager of the venue siged he knew we woud've filled up the place this month. He also knew we had a real fight during the festival. And you only get one chance with these big companies.

And most likely would have had a tour of some kind arranged for next year with HM==V. Not only that I had at least one other theatre I was going to fund myself.

However I had to go during the festival first. That one bad piece of timing sort of messed it up for the moment. Timing and knowing how the market is moving is really important especially in these times. And especially if you don't have the full force of tv exposure on your side.

If you want or you NEED to make money. If you have enough money and want to do it for the hell of it that's another thing.

I'm looking forward to seeing Ken Webster's results. I would've gave it ago myself on my own but I don't have the money to risk just now. These really are tough times.
IAIN
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The way you guys go at it in here makes the mentalist section seem like a nursery...

*reads minds*

bite your tongue, you...
I've asked to be banned
JonChase
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MP I didn't say the acts were failing but that houses were falling, not the same thing at all.

I went to see Billy Elliot and the FOH manager who I knew from Jersy way back, said that all the shows in the West End were working around 15 to 20% down on three years ago, regardless.

You must read what people write mate.

And you know for every real Talent like Derren in the world there are dozens of wannabe's all slagging them off. Mostly they are people who no one outside of their local town has ever heard off. And here's a quick thought, you don't find them wasting their time talking to the wannabes either!
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Jon Chase



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mindpunisher
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Houses acts its the same thing Jon. But I get and agree with your point. However there are also some acts doing very well. So I do agree with you to some degree you are right. Well to a large degree. But there are also trends too. But the economic situation has hit everybody. And even great talents go in and out of fashion. That undisputable.

I agree Derren is a great talent too. Although personally I don't like his newer stuff.however I wasn't slagging him off his show was manufactured to a degree and I believe he and his team are where they are because they are also on top of their game regards to trends and markets. that's not a slagging its a compliment.

But the point I am making is that things can be engineered to a degree and many great talents never get the break they need to get into the public eye.

While I agree with a lot of what you say I also agree with the marketing aspect. And if an artist doesn't market himself then his agent will or he will starve. Your quite a good marketer yourself?

I totally agree with you about talking with the wannabes to. Life is about moving in the right circles. its getting into the right circles that's the trick.

I talk on here because I have too much tme on my hands just now. Call it a weird kind of therapy. The things I used to do to make money are also failing most of us are being hit.
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