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Chezaday Inner circle Naperville, IL 1673 Posts |
It's been brought to my attention that Fantasma Magic and Ed Alonzo have a new set available at Costco. Sure ... it's got all the standard junk but, the table top converts into the Head Twister Illusion.
A couple of questions come to mind with this type of exposure. Does this cross the line? Is this an illusion that is simply public domain? What's next? Sure .. I remember the Twister was exposed by our good friend the Masked Moron a few years back. A child with this kid will at least have some interest in magic and that's cool with me. After all that's how I started with a Marshall Brodien TV Magic Kit back in the 70's. Your thoughts? Steve |
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illusionman2 Special user 991 Posts |
Public domain
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Blair Marshall Inner circle Montreal, Canada 3660 Posts |
One of the issues discussed on another board was that the prop is not solid, and will not last, resulting in the fact that you are only exposing the secret, and to a young performer the prop will be long gone before he has mastered performing it.
Public domain? The head twister has been around for awhile, but this simple effect is a major componant of the "Twister Illusion", so in that regard I am not impressed with it being in this set. Blair it.
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Pete Biro 1933 - 2018 18558 Posts |
Isn't there a version using a large plain grocery store paper bag?
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TheDean Inner circle Reno, Nevada 2164 Posts |
Yes Pete, there is...
This paper-bag version exposes the illusion more than selling it in Costco in my opinion and experience and totally trivializes the illusion all using in namesake for a GAG. (Not all that funny either…) I personally (and in my opinion) don’t like seeing this being offered and sold in Costco as part of a “kit” either. Kind-of amazing what some are willing to do for the money eh’? …and we call Val and bad guy… interesting. Just my opinion… like it or not. I think it is bad JuJu.
Dean Hankey, *M.D. - The Dean of Success Solutions!
Serving & Supporting YOU and Your Success! "Book More Shows... Make More Money... SERVE MORE PEOPLE! - Not Necessarily In That Order…" (*Marketing Doctor) |
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Chezaday Inner circle Naperville, IL 1673 Posts |
There is a huge difference between an effect being exposed in a set as compared exposure on TV. In the set or a book you have some interest in magic, on TV the secret is spoon-fed to the public. Most likely they have no real interest in magic .. thus a huge difference. Even on YouTube, you have to seek out the information .. it just doesn't appear on your television screen.
What's next .. a cardboard Zig Zag Lady at Sam's Club? Steve |
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TheDean Inner circle Reno, Nevada 2164 Posts |
Hey brother Steve... NOT suggesting that “selling magic is like free exposure on TV”. I agree with you on that for sure… Heck, I am a fan of the (free) library for some of the same reasons you outlined.
My question is: Can we afford to trivialize magic illusions (Like a cardboard Zig Zag at Sam's Club, or the head Twister at Costco…) by selling well used illusion in warehouse store magic kits so a few folks can make a some bucks at the expense of the industry we love? I still think it is a bad idea, but that is my OPINION as I said.
Dean Hankey, *M.D. - The Dean of Success Solutions!
Serving & Supporting YOU and Your Success! "Book More Shows... Make More Money... SERVE MORE PEOPLE! - Not Necessarily In That Order…" (*Marketing Doctor) |
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Chezaday Inner circle Naperville, IL 1673 Posts |
Yes, I agree .. this is a bad idea.
Not so long ago I was asked to build a prototype of a head vanish for a set to be put out on the market. They wanted to use the double mirror principle. There were many other stipulations and I thought it was a terrible idea to expose this particular method. Needless to say .. I couldn't meet their needs and it didn't happen. Steve |
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vj022 Regular user 170 Posts |
Wait, this was at Costco???? Is this for the assistant's with the Swelled head. (Bulk, swelled head, Sorry, I figured it was funny to me)
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Sealegs Inner circle The UK, Portsmouth 2596 Posts |
Pete Biro wrote:
Quote:
Isn't there a version using a large plain grocery store paper bag? Probably.... But the idea of performing this effect with paper bags is mine. It's an idea that has been copied by many and quite often, if the posts in this thread are anything to go by, badly and ineffectively. I have never performed it using Costco bags. (I don't think we even have Costco in the UK) TheDean wrote: Quote:
This paper-bag version exposes the illusion more than selling it in Costco in my opinion and experience and totally trivializes the illusion all using in namesake for a GAG. (Not all that funny either…) I'm not sure if you've seen my version of this (I'd bet a large sum of money that you haven't) or if you've only seen version's that have ripped off my idea of doing this with paper bags. I say this as I'm at a loss to understand how you could have come to the opinion you do if you had seen this performed as I originally and currently do it. Firststly it doesn't trivialise the illusion any more than any other presentation I've seen does. Why should the materials used be considered as trivialising the effect?. It's an attitude that likely to trivialise an effect or a bad performance. That can be true of this effect (and any other come to that) regardless what the 'props' are made from. Does the cardboard box version of the sword box trivialise that effect? Personally I think it's one of the best presentational devises for the 'swords through a box containing an assistant' theme. Secondly it is not done as a gag. If it was just done for a gag it wouldn't be in my show. Everthing in my act has to work from a magic point of view. It also has to be something that I can make funny. The illusion as the audience sees it comes out from left field and so catches the them wrong footed. The illusion holds up just as well as it does with original wooden box-within-a box version. The mechanics are, afterall, the same. Thirdly you say it's 'not funny either'. This is how I know for sure that you haven't seen my version of this or me performing it. As I stated it's not done as a gag, it's done as an effect.... BUT it also happens to be capable of creating the biggest of responses in the form of loud and sustained laughter. In comedy clubs I used to end on this effect and when I had it ripped off by another performer and featured (in a slightly altered manner) on the UK's most prestigeous entertainment show, The Royal Variety Show, he closed his act with it. (Over the years I've gone from being bitter to being flattered by this) I respect the fact that you said that it's your opinion and it is of course one you are entitled to... but it's one that doesn't square with my understanding and experience of it as the original performer and discoverer of doing this effect using paper bags. Neal Austin
Neal Austin
"The golden rule is that there are no golden rules." G.B. Shaw |
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61magic Special user Sacramento California 775 Posts |
Magic sets have been mass marketed for a long time so I'm not surprised Costco is selling them, they start the christmas season long before anyone else does.
I guess the question here "is a magic set just to make someone a buck through exposure or is it a legitimate way to introduce magic to kids"? I think each of us will answer based on the value we place on the head twister individually. Personally I don't think this is any worse than exposing the linking rings, billiard balls, rice bowls, or any other standard magic set items.
Professor J. P. Fawkes
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SpellbinderEntertainment Inner circle West Coast 3519 Posts |
I’m going to go out on a limb here.
Without bells and whistles (and one heck of a good presentation) The Head Twister is just not that amazing/entertaining/deceptive. If they’re going to include one “big illusion” with the kit, this was probably a good choice. If it had not been for the large “Sneaky Pete Magic Kit” RemCo put out about a century ago (which gave away LOTS of good secrets and stuff) I probably wouldn’t have caught the magic bug as badly as I did. There are a million things I’d chastise Costco for exposing, but with the bright eyes of a young Houdini at Xmas in mind, this one does not bother me too much. Magically, Walt |
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Servante Inner circle 1330 Posts |
Omigod. Sneaky Pete! Yes! How much fun was THAT?
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George Ledo Magic Café Columnist SF Bay Area 3042 Posts |
I haven't seen the item at Costco, but last week in Orlando, at a chain drugstore, I did see a Criss Angel magic kit, with several smaller tricks you could buy separately. Hey, let's all jump on the bandwagon.
That's our departed buddy Burt, aka The Great Burtini, doing his famous Cups and Mice routine
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Chezaday Inner circle Naperville, IL 1673 Posts |
Let me guess .. you don't have a Twister Illusion in your arsenal. Yes, I've got one .. and yes, it bothers me to see part of the illusion at your local warehouse club.
I love hearing from fellow Magi that say .. oh, no big deal. Then they get bent out of shape when their $75.00 set of Linking Rings get exposed .. or even better the Thumb Tip. Exposure is exposure .. it's pretty simple. Steve |
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61magic Special user Sacramento California 775 Posts |
Quote:
On 2010-10-16 12:35, Chezaday wrote: I'm not sure who this is directed at but yes I do have a Head Twister, the one I have was built for me my Jim Sommers. I'm not sure I can agree that "exposure is exposure", there will be far more exposure on youtube than all the sales Costco will make with this product. The fine line between teaching/introduction to magic and exposure is really hard to define. I suspect those who derive more income from magic will be much more upset by this. Just think of Kevin James with his Living Hand Illusion that is copied in every joke shop and Halloween store...
Professor J. P. Fawkes
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TheDean Inner circle Reno, Nevada 2164 Posts |
Neal, you are likely correct that I have NOT seen your presentation of the “Paper-Bag Head Twisting” and my opinion (and experience) was NOT meant as a slam to you personally or professionally. I apologize if I have somehow offended you, that was not my intention.
I COMPLETELY Understand that the “TRICK” does NOT the performer make. I have seen some of the best magic destroyed in the hands of the less competent and I have seen what most would call stock, simple tricks bring audiences’ to their feet in wild ovation… I think we all get that at some level. I have seen Mark Kornhauser do “HIS” rendition of the Paper Hat Tear absolutely KILL from the world’s largest stage with no cameras or anything… he ROCKS when most use as a throw-away bit… We’ve all heard the phrase; (Whether You Totally Believe It Or Not…) “There is No Such Thing As A Bad magic Trick, Only A Bad Magician!” – I have seen the best and the worst that typify this perspective whether we ‘believe’ the old axiom or not. I Get It; “Magic Is In The Hands Of The Performer”! and it is true that some ‘wreck it’ while others “ROCK It Big Time!” Too, it is NOT the materials that trivialize the magic… that is like saying the paper hat tear is crap cuz it is made of tissue when nothing could be further from the truth. Tha’d be like saying making something out of 'solid gold' would making it a better trick too… obviously that is not true either. Cardboard Box or Solid Gold the trick is what it is, BUT to sell a established, well used professional illusion in a warehouse, big-box store for pennies on the dollar IS trivializing magic and the illusion n question and potentially damaging to our industry and as Steve says; “What’s Next, A Cardboard Zig Zag at Sam’s Club?” When and were does it stop? I totally AGREE that Magic Kits are an important introduction to magic… I LOVE Marshall Brodine and what he did for my career as well. No complaints from me, BUT he never sold an established, ILLUSION made of cardboard in his kits either. I would LOVE, Absolutely Adore the chance to see your presentation of the “Paper Bag Head Twister” for the professional and entertaining masterpiece that it may be in your hands, but here is what I know; I had a few good friends stumble upon ‘someone’ doing a “Paper Bag Head Twister” as a gag and immediately knew what was going on and then proceeded to tell me now they know how that big-stage illusion is done… what-ever you want to call it, the videos they saw was EXPOSURE. Again, NOT calling you out in any way, nor am I slamming, demeaning or belittling your contribution to magic and the head twister is any shape or form! - - Remember the masterful ‘paper hat tear’ as offered by Mark Kornhauser, or a Balloon Bit by Jeff Hobson or Steve Spills contribution to what-otherwise would only be viewed as a stuffed duck puppet and now a performance masterpiece as well and the ensuing standing ovations! I am merely sharing my thoughts, opinions and experiences on the subject at hand. I do wish you all the best and as I said, I would LOVE to see what you do and how it might well be the entertaining masterpiece that this illusion deserves, (whether we like the illusion or not) and the respect that is due magic and our industry all for the sake of a quick merchandising buck. (…and I am a HUUUUGE FAN of “merchandising” and making a buck, helping people get more of what they want need and desire!) If there is anything I can do to serve, support and encourage you and your success, it is my honor. I am at your service and in HIS Service, Deano (Does NOT live in a glass house) in Reno <><
Dean Hankey, *M.D. - The Dean of Success Solutions!
Serving & Supporting YOU and Your Success! "Book More Shows... Make More Money... SERVE MORE PEOPLE! - Not Necessarily In That Order…" (*Marketing Doctor) |
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magicians Inner circle Teacher and Legend 2898 Posts |
You all assume that if its in Costco, its exposed. Lets look at the end user. They are not demonstrating it, it is "in a kit".
The desire to buy the kit has to be there. Most likely a gift by Grandpa for christmas. This is no worse than a magic shop at Disney. With the demise of lots of brick and mortar shops, this may be as good a way to get a potential performer into magic. Its no worse than a Svengali deck pitch at a fair. True story: Many years ago Tony Spina went to the NY Merchandise show t turn on a mass market to magic. One of the "takers" was Macy's in NY. They took a carte blanche assortment of magic. Square circles, chop cups, dove pans plus smaller items like scotch and soda, hot rods, elaborate bill tubes and of course this was "BC" before computers, so the instructions were typewritten and photocopies. I stopped by to see this wonderful magical display which did not have a demonstrator. The merchandisers of the metal stuff did not know what they were doing and all that stuff was displayed like pots and pans on tables and dump bins. The coins, cards, packet effects (all with generic wite instruction sheets in plastic baggies on pegboard hooks in wall dump bins and just laying out in the open. Within one day, every item including all the intricate lipincott boxes, bill tube, coin effects were opened by curious shoppers. The metal stuff were touched and mismatched like pots and pans. There were very few if any sales. Tony wound up buying back the goods which were returned opened and trashed.
Illusionist, Illusionist consulting, product development, stage consultant, seasoned performer for over 35 years. Specializing in original effects. Highly opinionated, usually correct, and not afraid of jealous critics. I've been a puppet, a pirate, a pawn and a King. Free lance gynecologist.
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TheDean Inner circle Reno, Nevada 2164 Posts |
I seriously doubt that anyone thinks “That Because It’s In Costco, It’s Exposure”, but maybe someone does, though I doubt it cuz that would be a totally illogical leap as I see it anyway.
I will speak for myself… and in my ‘opinion’. (Again… not mad or anything… just sharing some thought is all. PLEASE do NOT try and make this anything more than a rational, adult conversation… ok? I know it’s hard to tell in ‘writing’ sometimes. - - Fair? – Fair! So, In THIS EXAMPLE; Giving away a core piece of illusionary magic to the uninitiated beginner at ‘warehouse’ prices only serves the sellers and does NOTHING for the advancement of our art and industry. There is LOTS of beginner magic that will serve the buyer as well as the seller and our industry. I say SELL KITS in Costco… fine. BUT; Giving away (practically anyway) and totally trivializing a core working illusions that exposes the principle of a even more established stage illusion for pennies by comparison to the lay community is bad JuJu for working pros everywhere and does NOT serve the beginner either. The ONLY possible winner is the manufacturer who may stand to make a few mechanizing bucks at the expense and exposure of good magic and our industry when simply NOT exposing a core, working performers illusion would go unnoticed by the lay buyer. And the kits would still sell anyway! - - Most of us bought (or got one) at-least one kit in our lives, right? I never felt ripped-off if my magic kit didn’t have a sawing in half, levi or heat twisting illusion in it and I seriously doubt if anyone else did either. Magic is a series of self earned initiations and growth levels… there is a REASON that we don’t just give away major illusion in store-bought kits for beginners, and YES; REGARDLESS of what we can find on the net… Just sharing some thoughts. I am at your service and in HIS Service, Dean <>< PS Besides, it’s not like this little thread will have much, if any impact on the outcome of the kit anyway if it’s already in production or stacked-up in some distribution warehouse waiting to be stocked and displayed… all we can do is chat, right? – Maybe not… who knows.
Dean Hankey, *M.D. - The Dean of Success Solutions!
Serving & Supporting YOU and Your Success! "Book More Shows... Make More Money... SERVE MORE PEOPLE! - Not Necessarily In That Order…" (*Marketing Doctor) |
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Blair Marshall Inner circle Montreal, Canada 3660 Posts |
Back to the part of the issue which some of the latter posters are straying from. Last years' kit was excellent with props that would last, and could be used until a young performer "graduated" to the local magic shop (or on-line shop), or the library for some good books. Yes, there were "secrets" included which I felt shouldn't have, due to rights etc. (I don't know the story here though.) But it definately gave a good intro to magic for a young, 10 and over beginner. 2 years ago the kit was junk with a lot of cardboard props held together with tabs etc. that even with me handling them, they fell apart.....imagine how frustrating for a young performer that is.
Part of the point here is not only the secret that is being exposed (head twister), but the prop supplied is more or less just there to illustrate the secret with little other purpose. It's a throw away, which I think it is too good an effect to do that to. Blair
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