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LobowolfXXX
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On 2010-10-18 23:11, landmark wrote:
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On 2010-10-18 13:09, LobowolfXXX wrote:
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On 2010-10-18 11:08, ClintonMagus wrote:
Back to the topic at hand, I just watched the video on YouTube, and it is pretty apparent that Joy and Whoopi completely lost control on their own show. The hosts asked a question, O'Reilly answered it honestly, and they went into meltdown mode.

I'm not a huge O'Reilly fan, but I thought he maintained control of the situation pretty well.

I have no opinion of the View hosts, but, with the possible exception of Barbara Walters, they proved that they have no business trying to conduct a political interview.


And his answer was patently true. The professional response would be to press him on the point that the 9/11 crew was a small handful of extremists out of a billion Muslims, many of whom are part of numerous communities in New York.

Please. Bill was incredibly patronizing with his "Be quiet so you can learn something." And then his statement that he knows the families of 9/11 victims and they oppose the mosque. How intellectually dishonest. There are many families that don't oppose the mosque, but Bill never bothered to find out about them, if he was truly concerned. He just came off as an ignorant blowhard.


I thought the whole point of political correctness and sensitivity is that you're supposed to cater to the ones who WILL be offended, even if some won't.

Strongly disagree as to who came off ignorant.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
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It might have been professional for Joy and Whoopi to continue pressing Bill on the "extreme" bit rather than walk out. Though they briefly tried that, before walking out when Bill O. refused up until then to clarify his remarks.

At the same time, the professional thing for Bill to have done would have been to include the word "extremist" in his remarks from the very start.
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LobowolfXXX
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On 2010-10-18 23:21, balducci wrote:
It might have been professional for Joy and Whoopi to continue pressing Bill on the "extreme" bit rather than walk out. Though they briefly tried that, before walking out when Bill O. refused up until then to clarify his remarks.

At the same time, the professional thing for Bill to have done would have been to include the word "extremist" in his remarks from the very start.


The remarks weren't at all ambiguous. If anyone was intellectually dishonest, it was the hosts for extrapolating a comment about the 9/11 attackers to all Muslims. If I say that dogs attacked my brother, everyone over the age of 4 knows that I'm not talking about every dog everywhere.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
landmark
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On 2010-10-18 10:19, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Here's a question: Is the motivation behind the mosque relevant to the discussion at all? Let be me more specific about what I mean by "relevant."

Let's say we could be inside the head of Imam Faisal Abdul Rauf for a few minutes, and know what he's thinking 100%. Here are two scenarios:

1) He's thinking that this is a good opportunity to celebrate American freedom of religion, bring some greater understanding between religions by putting up a new cultural center, and just generally spread peace on earth and goodwill to men.

2) He's thinking that the center is the ultimate middle finger to the USA...in football parlance, a "sack dance" - an in-your-face exclamation point almost on top of a great Islamic jihadist victory. He has a tremendous hatred for America, and the mosque is just an architectural vehicle for him to laugh at us.

What I mean by relevant is, would your position on the whole issue be any different if you knew 100% that either of the two scenarios above was accurate? For anyone who cares to answer.

Lobo--where is the questioning of the motives of every developer of every building in the area. Because truly, no building should go up until that is fully vetted. Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men other than the Shadow?

My use of the term racism is admittedly loose here--I did struggle for another word, but it might not be the best. Prejudice, anti-Muslim discrimination, don't quite get the visceral irrational reaction that I'm after and that you can see plenty of in this thread. Yes of course there are non-Arab Muslims and Non-Muslim Christians--but I think to many of those opposed to the mosque it's all just one thing: the Other. Just like Afganistan=Iraq=Pakistan=Iran. You want to excuse Bill's deliberate ignorance about family feelings with a hurrah for his "tolerance." To be more clear, a person may claim that Blacks are allowed to live in my neighborhood, it just would be insensitive to do so. Does this person get lauded for their tolerance?
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On 2010-10-18 23:24, LobowolfXXX wrote:
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On 2010-10-18 23:21, balducci wrote:
It might have been professional for Joy and Whoopi to continue pressing Bill on the "extreme" bit rather than walk out. Though they briefly tried that, before walking out when Bill O. refused up until then to clarify his remarks.

At the same time, the professional thing for Bill to have done would have been to include the word "extremist" in his remarks from the very start.


The remarks weren't at all ambiguous. If anyone was intellectually dishonest, it was the hosts for extrapolating a comment about the 9/11 attackers to all Muslims. If I say that dogs attacked my brother, everyone over the age of 4 knows that I'm not talking about every dog everywhere.

Lobo, I have to disagree with you. I've been on forums where some people take Bill O's words at face value. They truly believe that the 9/11 attacks were something that ALL Muslims believed in and supported. So Bill's words were absolutely ambiguous so far as that goes. If Bill wanted to be entirely 'professional' (but I think 'responsible' is a better word for it), he should have included "extremist" from the start. His intentional choice of words was needlessly inflammatory.
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
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I thought the whole point of political correctness and sensitivity is that you're supposed to cater to the ones who WILL be offended, even if some won't.


No. The point is not to act or speak in a prejudiced manner. Are you assuming some kind of moral equivalency between victim and victimizer?
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It is rather obvious that Joy Behar and Whoopi Goldberg are not professional interviewers. They definitely have "views" but they are hard to see as they are quite a bit to the left. Perfect example of being in the right place at the right time and getting a position that they are incapable of handling when someone puts a little pressure on them.

They acted like two spoiled litle brats and picked up their marbles and went home. Wow very professional. They reminded me of Laurel and Hardy.

You have to admit they looked pretty stupid when leaving the set.
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LobowolfXXX
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On 2010-10-18 23:28, landmark wrote:
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On 2010-10-18 10:19, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Here's a question: Is the motivation behind the mosque relevant to the discussion at all? Let be me more specific about what I mean by "relevant."

Let's say we could be inside the head of Imam Faisal Abdul Rauf for a few minutes, and know what he's thinking 100%. Here are two scenarios:

1) He's thinking that this is a good opportunity to celebrate American freedom of religion, bring some greater understanding between religions by putting up a new cultural center, and just generally spread peace on earth and goodwill to men.

2) He's thinking that the center is the ultimate middle finger to the USA...in football parlance, a "sack dance" - an in-your-face exclamation point almost on top of a great Islamic jihadist victory. He has a tremendous hatred for America, and the mosque is just an architectural vehicle for him to laugh at us.

What I mean by relevant is, would your position on the whole issue be any different if you knew 100% that either of the two scenarios above was accurate? For anyone who cares to answer.

Lobo--where is the questioning of the motives of every developer of every building in the area. Because truly, no building should go up until that is fully vetted. Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men other than the Shadow?

My use of the term racism is admittedly loose here--I did struggle for another word, but it might not be the best. Prejudice, anti-Muslim discrimination, don't quite get the visceral irrational reaction that I'm after and that you can see plenty of in this thread. Yes of course there are non-Arab Muslims and Non-Muslim Christians--but I think to many of those opposed to the mosque it's all just one thing: the Other. Just like Afganistan=Iraq=Pakistan=Iran. You want to excuse Bill's deliberate ignorance about family feelings with a hurrah for his "tolerance." To be more clear, a person may claim that Blacks are allowed to live in my neighborhood, it just would be insensitive to do so. Does this person get lauded for their tolerance?


I can see where you're coming from as far as the connotation of racism being closest to what you're trying to describe. I don't think it's a matter of "ignorance" about family feelings; his point (I would assume) is that if there's a large number it bothers, then it shouldn't be done even if there's also a lot of people it DOESN'T bother. Your argument strikes me as like saying that it's OK to use the N-word if you can find a lot of people it doesn't bother - they somehow offset the ones it does bother.

I'm didn't say anyone's motives should be vetted; I asked if it would make a difference to you, personally, as far as your views on the matter.

I don't think your "blacks in the neighborhood" analogy fits well; as far as I know, nobody is saying that no Muslims should live near ground zero. A better analogy might be if it's unreasonable or racist for someone whose family members were murdered by extremist members of the Black Panther party to object to someone putting up a statue of Eldridge Cleaver a block from his or her house.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
LobowolfXXX
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On 2010-10-18 23:35, balducci wrote:
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On 2010-10-18 23:24, LobowolfXXX wrote:
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On 2010-10-18 23:21, balducci wrote:
It might have been professional for Joy and Whoopi to continue pressing Bill on the "extreme" bit rather than walk out. Though they briefly tried that, before walking out when Bill O. refused up until then to clarify his remarks.

At the same time, the professional thing for Bill to have done would have been to include the word "extremist" in his remarks from the very start.


The remarks weren't at all ambiguous. If anyone was intellectually dishonest, it was the hosts for extrapolating a comment about the 9/11 attackers to all Muslims. If I say that dogs attacked my brother, everyone over the age of 4 knows that I'm not talking about every dog everywhere.

Lobo, I have to disagree with you. I've been on forums where some people take Bill O's words at face value. They truly believe that the 9/11 attacks were something that ALL Muslims believed in and supported. So Bill's words were absolutely ambiguous so far as that goes. If Bill wanted to be entirely 'professional' (but I think 'responsible' is a better word for it), he should have included "extremist" from the start. His intentional choice of words was needlessly inflammatory.


The words, at face value, did not say or imply anything about "all Muslims."

As was suggested by someone else earlier in the thread, by that logic, saying that "Muslim extremists attacked us on 9/11" would not suffice, either, because not all Muslim extremists were involved in the 9/11 talks.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
LobowolfXXX
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On 2010-10-18 23:37, landmark wrote:
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I thought the whole point of political correctness and sensitivity is that you're supposed to cater to the ones who WILL be offended, even if some won't.


No. The point is not to act or speak in a prejudiced manner. Are you assuming some kind of moral equivalency between victim and victimizer?


I'm not sure exactly what you mean by your question. Do you see people who voice disagreement with the mosque as victimizers?
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
LobowolfXXX
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On 2010-10-18 23:48, LobowolfXXX wrote:
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On 2010-10-18 23:35, balducci wrote:
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On 2010-10-18 23:24, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On 2010-10-18 23:21, balducci wrote:
It might have been professional for Joy and Whoopi to continue pressing Bill on the "extreme" bit rather than walk out. Though they briefly tried that, before walking out when Bill O. refused up until then to clarify his remarks.

At the same time, the professional thing for Bill to have done would have been to include the word "extremist" in his remarks from the very start.


The remarks weren't at all ambiguous. If anyone was intellectually dishonest, it was the hosts for extrapolating a comment about the 9/11 attackers to all Muslims. If I say that dogs attacked my brother, everyone over the age of 4 knows that I'm not talking about every dog everywhere.

Lobo, I have to disagree with you. I've been on forums where some people take Bill O's words at face value. They truly believe that the 9/11 attacks were something that ALL Muslims believed in and supported. So Bill's words were absolutely ambiguous so far as that goes. If Bill wanted to be entirely 'professional' (but I think 'responsible' is a better word for it), he should have included "extremist" from the start. His intentional choice of words was needlessly inflammatory.


The words, at face value, did not say or imply anything about "all Muslims."

As was suggested by someone else earlier in the thread, by that logic, saying that "Muslim extremists attacked us on 9/11" would not suffice, either, because not all Muslim extremists were involved in the 9/11 talks.


*"attacks," of course, not "talks."
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
balducci
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On 2010-10-18 23:48, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On 2010-10-18 23:35, balducci wrote:
Quote:
On 2010-10-18 23:24, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On 2010-10-18 23:21, balducci wrote:
It might have been professional for Joy and Whoopi to continue pressing Bill on the "extreme" bit rather than walk out. Though they briefly tried that, before walking out when Bill O. refused up until then to clarify his remarks.

At the same time, the professional thing for Bill to have done would have been to include the word "extremist" in his remarks from the very start.


The remarks weren't at all ambiguous. If anyone was intellectually dishonest, it was the hosts for extrapolating a comment about the 9/11 attackers to all Muslims. If I say that dogs attacked my brother, everyone over the age of 4 knows that I'm not talking about every dog everywhere.

Lobo, I have to disagree with you. I've been on forums where some people take Bill O's words at face value. They truly believe that the 9/11 attacks were something that ALL Muslims believed in and supported. So Bill's words were absolutely ambiguous so far as that goes. If Bill wanted to be entirely 'professional' (but I think 'responsible' is a better word for it), he should have included "extremist" from the start. His intentional choice of words was needlessly inflammatory.


The words, at face value, did not say or imply anything about "all Muslims."

As was suggested by someone else earlier in the thread, by that logic, saying that "Muslim extremists attacked us on 9/11" would not suffice, either, because not all Muslim extremists were involved in the 9/11 talks.

It is not a matter of logic. It is a matter of how the words might reasonably be interpreted. Not in a court of law, but in the real world. Especially when Bill O must know how some people (see my earlier post) are interpreting his words.
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
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On 2010-10-18 23:46, LobowolfXXX wrote:

I don't think your "blacks in the neighborhood" analogy fits well; as far as I know, nobody is saying that no Muslims should live near ground zero. A better analogy might be if it's unreasonable or racist for someone whose family members were murdered by extremist members of the Black Panther party to object to someone putting up a statue of Eldridge Cleaver a block from his or her house.

No, it would be analogous to putting up a statue of Homer Simpson. It might offend some people, but that would be a problem with their Simpsonphobia. It has nothing to do with the original crime. You continue to make the false link between crazed fundamentalism and Islam.
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.... You continue to make the false link between crazed fundamentalism and Islam.


Wow, I think you're right! How could anyone have possibly made that link???
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On 2010-10-19 10:22, rockwall wrote:
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.... You continue to make the false link between crazed fundamentalism and Islam.


Wow, I think you're right! How could anyone have possibly made that link???


Yeah... I mean... No OTHER religion has crazy fundamentalists... right?

http://tinyurl.com/324v584

http://tinyurl.com/2btvu99

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominionism

;)
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Find me another religion that has tens of thousands of members that are cheering on the crazy fundamentalists that are blowing people up and I'll concede the point.
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On 2010-10-19 11:03, rockwall wrote:
Find me another religion that has tens of thousands of members that are cheering on the crazy fundamentalists that are blowing people up and I'll concede the point.


http://tinyurl.com/2ed9u3z

http://tinyurl.com/3578783

I gladly accept your concession.
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Hmmm, better keep looking or try and be a bit more specific. I didn't see any links where tens of thousands of members were cheering on the crazy fundamentalists.

something like this would be appropriate.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rmo64fcvKs0
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On 2010-10-19 13:16, rockwall wrote:
Hmmm, better keep looking or try and be a bit more specific. I didn't see any links where tens of thousands of members were cheering on the crazy fundamentalists.

something like this would be appropriate.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rmo64fcvKs0


This doesn't apply, of course, because it was broadcast on Fox News...
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On 2010-10-19 13:16, rockwall wrote:
Hmmm, better keep looking or try and be a bit more specific. I didn't see any links where tens of thousands of members were cheering on the crazy fundamentalists.

something like this would be appropriate.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rmo64fcvKs0

I don't see 10s of 1000s of people celebrating in that video. I see less than a dozen people looking as though they are even remotely celebrating, in front of a sparse crowd of people looking on who appear to be trying to figure out what is going on.

If the time stamp on that video is correct (10:13 a.m., presumably on 9/11) it is doubtful that the few people on camera there even really knew the extent of the 9/11 attacks at that point. The first tower had only collapsed a few minutes before, and the second was still standing.
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
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