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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Not very magical, still... » » Joy Behar and Whoopi Goldberg and Oriley » » TOPIC IS LOCKED (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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balducci
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On 2010-10-19 11:03, rockwall wrote:
Find me another religion that has tens of thousands of members that are cheering on the crazy fundamentalists that are blowing people up and I'll concede the point.

This is hitting close to home, but think about the 10s of 1000s of people who were cheer leading air strikes on innocent civilians in certain middle eastern countries, as part of questionable military operations. Of course, we rarely are allowed to see video footage of that so it is kept nicely out of sight and out of mind.
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
Cyberqat
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I considered mentioning that, but it wasn't *technically* religious.

Of course neither are the things Rockwell points to. They are political and a direct result of the West's political and military history in the Middle East.

But as I already won this argument by the terms previously set forth I am not about to continue it under changed terms. A bigot is a bigot and no logic in the world will change that. I have better uses for my time.
It is always darkest just before you are eaten by a grue.
Cyberqat
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I doubt you actually want any real education, Rockwell, but if you do, here is a place you might start leasnring something about true Islam...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirpan

Islam actually contains strict rules about where and how violence may be employed and its a lot stricter then either Judaism OR Chrisitanity.
It is always darkest just before you are eaten by a grue.
MagicSanta
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The difference in that in Judaism and Christianity there came a realization for virtually all that those 'rules' were outdated and not to be followed. This is called reformation. In Islam there has never been a reformation and while the vast majority will never commit an act of violence the action is still considered valid. Most Muslims in modern society are fine. Many in not so great situations are finding their only way to empowerment and validation IS through violence or the support of violence.
Cyberqat
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By the way... you wanted a video of tens of thousands of Christians cheering the destruction of those not of their faith?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIF6hOy5LNg

And I think I just ended the discussion.

(P.S. Santa-- yes desperate people in desperate situations can rationalize almost anything. If you want a closer to home example, try Compton. The only solution is to try to eliminate such situations. Which may be impossible, but is worth an effort.)
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balducci
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On 2010-10-19 15:26, Cyberqat wrote:
By the way... you wanted a video of tens of thousands of Christians cheering the destruction of those not of their faith?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIF6hOy5LNg

And I think I just ended the discussion.

But, but, wait. That took place after the Reformation people keep bringing up. How can this be?
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
ClintonMagus
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Quote:
On 2010-10-19 15:26, Cyberqat wrote:
By the way... you wanted a video of tens of thousands of Christians cheering the destruction of those not of their faith?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIF6hOy5LNg


I must have missed the part where the announcer said that they were all Christians...

Quote:
And I think I just ended the discussion.


Ooohhh, CyberQ... you're still the BEST! <goosebumps>
Things are more like they are today than they've ever been before...
MagicSanta
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Cyber, their leadership doesn't want their situation to change over there.

People are actually trying to say that Nazism was based on Christian belief? That is really sad that some would try to go to that extreme. I've said it before, I never blamed Muslims for the terror attacks as a whole nor do I have an issue with them building that community center, as if I had a vote. But those who are attempting to justify the attacks and actions of those who to this day are commiting large scale murder by trying to associate Christians with the Nazi's is sickening and you should be ashamed.
MagicSanta
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I found this information that proves all Canadians are violent drunken thieves:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halifax_Riot
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It was not based on Chrsitian belief, it was *justified* using Christian belief.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludwig_M%C3%BCller_(theologian)

Just as the 911 bombing was not based on Muslim belief, but rather justified using it.
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Cyberqat
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On 2010-10-19 15:38, MagicSanta wrote:
Cyber, their leadership doesn't want their situation to change over there.



And we do? Think carefully about the history of Compton before you answer..

We have the resources to feed and house every man woman and child in this country. SO why are there starving and homeless if there was will to make it otherwise?

I am not trying to "justify the attack". that's a separate conversation and totally political. My point is the exact same one as yours-- bad actions by people using a religion as an excuse, even backed for political reasons by many more people, should not be used to tar an entire religion or its adherents. Especially when anyone reasonably knowledgeable IN that religion would see such actions as antithetical to that religion's fundamental teachings.

And acts of violence are justified in legitimate Islam ONLY as a last resort to prevent greater harm to innocents or in personal self-defense.

Sort of like why the US entered WWII, yes?
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MagicSanta
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The attacks were based on a widely held belief in what Islam is calling for.

The fellow you reference was a puppet the same way as when the Dali Lama passes China will announce their version of the Dali Lama in Tibet. Nazism was not a Christian movement any more than the lack of mass resistance by those in concentration camps was mass suicide that mearly was tolerated by the guards.

Compton? Compton is a very old group of neighborhoods. They disbanded a corrupt police force and put more officers on the street. The crime rate has steadily dropped and the demographics have shifted from mostly black to hispanic and how increasingly Pacific islander. Exactly what would you like to be done? The residents rounded up and the area bulldozed? They can hire contractors to do it from Zimbabwe, they have experience with that.
Cyberqat
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On 2010-10-19 16:19, MagicSanta wrote:
The attacks were based on a widely held belief in what Islam is calling for.


By who? The nameless "they' is always a bad source.

Quote:
The fellow you reference was a puppet the same way as when the Dali Lama passes China will announce their version of the Dali Lama in Tibet


Irrelevant. The salient point was already made, that they used Christianity to justify atrocity just as some terrorists use Islam to do the same.

Quote:
. Nazism was not a Christian movement


Straw man. I never said it was. Not a legitimate one anyway. But nether is aggressive, violent radical Islam a legitimate Islamic movement.

Quote:
Compton? Compton is a very old group of neighborhoods. They disbanded a corrupt police force and put more officers on the street.


But last I looked innocents are still gunned down daily. And the only time we have been willing to put troops in there has been when that violence threatened to boil over into the neighborhoods we DO care about... and then they were there *fast*.

Quote:
Exactly what would you like to be done? The residents rounded up and the area bulldozed? They can hire contractors to do it from Zimbabwe, they have experience with that.


How about we "pacify" it the way we "bring order" to other parts of the world? IMHO It should have been declared a war zone a long time ago, with troops on the streets protecting the people.
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balducci
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On 2010-10-19 15:55, MagicSanta wrote:
I found this information that proves all Canadians are violent drunken thieves:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halifax_Riot

And our winters are cold. And our taxes are SO high. And our beer is like water. Please keep disseminating this 'factual' information. It is all part of our grand strategy to keep undesirables out.
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
Cyberqat
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And you're all SOCIALISTS!!!!

(Just keep telling people from The States that and it will have the same effect Smile Never mind that you have far better and more generous support for new small business then this country has. )
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RS1963
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Entertainers should stay out of politics period excluding us here on this forum. Most are not educated enough to even know what they are for or against or why it should even matter to anyone. They just want to run their mouths so they and everyone else can hear their wonderful voice. It's all blah blah blah blah I'm not listening to you so I'm going to throw a hissy and walk off.

No wonder I don't watch t.v. anymore or keep up to date with the movies that are coming out etc... It's not worth watching a bunch of crying uneducated babies.
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On 2010-10-19 15:58, Cyberqat wrote:
It was not based on Chrsitian belief, it was *justified* using Christian belief.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludwig_M%C3%BCller_(theologian)

Just as the 911 bombing was not based on Muslim belief, but rather justified using it.


My understanding from Landmark's posts is that any connection at all between the 9/11 attacks and Muslim belief is entirely coincidental, and that to perceive any such connection is prejudiced, ignorant, and/or immoral.
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Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

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MagicSanta
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...By who? The nameless "they' is always a bad source.. .
Wahabism, a main sect of Islam. Taliban are followers, as are much of Saudi Arabia, and world wide.

...Irrelevant. The salient point was already made, that they used Christianity to justify atrocity just as some terrorists use Islam to do the same...
Relevant. Nazi's did not use Christianity so support their actions. Nazi belief was based on atheism (not that their is anything wrong with that) and evolution, thus the belief that they were superior to other humans.


...Straw man. I never said it was. Not a legitimate one anyway. But nether is aggressive, violent radical Islam a legitimate Islamic movement...
Wrongo again, ask the Sunni if they consider the Wahabi Islamist to be violent and radical.


...But last I looked innocents are still gunned down daily. And the only time we have been willing to put troops in there has been when that violence threatened to boil over into the neighborhoods we DO care about... and then they were there *fast*. ...
No, people are not being gunned down daily in Compton. I feel safer in Compton than in parts of other cities. They need jobs in that area and that doesn't look like it is going to happen. Compton is improving steadily.

....How about we "pacify" it the way we "bring order" to other parts of the world? IMHO It should have been declared a war zone a long time ago, with troops on the streets protecting the people. ..
In Compton??? Maybe 20 years ago but it isn't that bad now. Gary Indiana though, that is a zoo.

...And our winters are cold. And our taxes are SO high. And our beer is like water. Please keep disseminating this 'factual' information. It is all part of our grand strategy to keep undesirables out...
I'm sorry, I thought that finding a moron puppet minister to use to claim Nazi's were Christians was just as fair as finding a riot to claim Canada out of control.
Cyberqat
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I havent been back to Compton in about 20 years so I'll take your word that things have *finally* improved, because it was bad for at least 50. It was one of the reasons I left LA. I couldn't stand the fact that I was getting *used* to hearing a news piece a week about some kid under the age of 8 being shot dead on the street.

I've actually finally done something I've been meaning to do for a long time, which is ordered a Quran for my ibook so I can actually read it cover to cover. I'll report back to you if I can find any justification for murder in it.

All the quotes I have seen so far suggest precisely the opposite. We know from the Old Testament that the Middle East was traditionally a very violent place with little tribes robbing and killing each other all the time. What I have seen so far suggests that Mohammed actually brought a great deal of honor and restraint to the use of violence. Some of the sweetest, nicest and gentlest people I have known have been Muslim, which tends to corroborate this. But as I say, I'll do my research and THEN take you on Smile
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Cyberqat
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Quote:
I'm sorry, I thought that finding a moron puppet minister to use to claim Nazi's were Christians was just as fair as finding a riot to claim Canada out of control.


Only because you insist on missing my point, my friend.

My point was that the abuse of religion to justify horrendous acts is nothing new or specific to Islam. And the swaying of mass numbers of people to support it is nothing new either.

And it wasn't one whacko minister. (Actually Priest, he was a Bishop). Read the article. It was an entire national church the Nazis created.
It is always darkest just before you are eaten by a grue.
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