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gdw Inner circle 4884 Posts 
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On 2010-10-22 21:53, LobowolfXXX wrote: YAY, someone agrees with me. I feel all warm and fuzy inside. Now, what I don't get, in as far as the actions of government, and others who advocate this type of interference on one's life is why they don't get this part: "He cannot rightfully be compelled to do or forbear because it will be better for him to do so, because it will make him happier, because, in the opinion of others, to do so would be wise, or even right... The only part of the conduct of anyone, for which he is amenable to society, is that which concerns others." If you think what someone is doing is bad for them, or that they are hurting themselves, I think you have every right to try to help them see that. I do NOT, however, think any "government" should be putting guns to their heads to stop them. If someone want's to grow a certain plant, **** off. If they then want to sell it, bugger off. And if another person want's to buy it, what's it to you? And then if that person want's to cut it up and put it in a salad, so be it. Now stay out of my carrot garden ya dang pigs.
"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."
I won't forget you Robert. |
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Chrystal Inner circle Canada/France 1552 Posts
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I also agree that ignoring people like this doesn't always work in most cases - it's standing up to them via non violent ways and supporting the targets of their hate. Just their presence alone shows the targeted families that the majority of the population does not share these views and will stand along side of them in support.
Remember that famous quote regarding Hitler? Something along the lines of first he came for the Disabled and I wasn't one ..so I did nothing. Then he came for the gypsies...I wasn't one so I did nothing Then he came for the homosexuals.." " Then the jews...." In the end he came for me and there was no one left to speak for me..or something along those lines. I posted another story recently which irked my sense of fair play. The response from the world has been to support the child whom was being targeted by positive messages and ignoring the person who sent them. By doing so ..people are showing they will not turn to violence or hatred themselves to prove their point. So far this little girl has received 12,000 positive messages the world over. Don't mean to hijack this post but for those interested that story is here: http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/dpp/news/the......-trenton In the end, I am bothered by stories like this,people being needlessly hurt by a rare few nut cases. I could never remain silent or ignore it, as to do so gives the impression to the bully that their actions are condoned. >>gets off white horse and waves white hat again. :O) |
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MagicSanta Inner circle Northern Nevada 5841 Posts
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Westboro limerick contest!
From Westboro a preacher did say that God hated everyone gay So he took to the road with his family in tow To harrass those that had passed away |
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critter Inner circle Spokane, WA 2653 Posts
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On 2010-10-22 22:12, Chrystal wrote: It's interesting you mention this because my good friend Floyd (Air Force, Retired) made a sign of this exact poem that he carried at the counter-protest. I considered bringing one that said "We don't take kindly to folk not takin' kindly 'round here."
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers |
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Magnus Eisengrim Inner circle Sulla placed heads on 1053 Posts
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On 2010-10-22 22:07, gdw wrote: The problem with quoting Mill out of context is that you lose the sense of his argument. He is championing the ethical doctrine of utilitarianism, that the sole measure of moral rightness or wrongness is a matter of simple calculation of aggregate preferences. Suppose Mill were right on this point (and he probably isn't), on what grounds does he claim that we are sovereign over our own bodies? There simply isn't a way to argue for that within his theory. Maybe there are solid ethical grounds for believing in our sovereignty over our own lives (and I think there are); it is much harder to argue that this sovereignty is unlimited. And appealing to Mill is probably a very poor way to make the case. Now, about the harm principle, Mill is anything but clear as to what constitutes harm... John
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned; The best lack all conviction, while the worst Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats |
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critter Inner circle Spokane, WA 2653 Posts
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The definition would also have to assume that schizophrenia and delusional psychosis didn't exist. Pretty hard to be the sovereign of your body when you aren't even sovereign of your mind.
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers |
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Andrew Zuber Inner circle Los Angeles, CA 3017 Posts
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I can bet you one thing - when any of their family members die, I bet they keep it as quiet as possible and either bury them on their private land or keep their ashes stuffed in a broom closet somewhere. I think it would be beautiful revenge to protest a Phelps family funeral.
"I'm sorry - if you were right, I would agree with you." -Robin Williams, Awakenings
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Destiny Inner circle 1429 Posts
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What a crazy world when we need to consider whether the law allows this sort of carry on at funerals.
Once common decency would have precluded the need for laws about such things. Life seems to have some strange balance which will not be unsettled. For very wrong we right, we screw up something else. |
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balducci Loyal user Canada 227 Posts
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WASHINGTON , Oct. 6 /PRNewswire-USNewswire/ -- The U.S. Supreme Court heard arguments today from both sides of the Snyder v. Phelps case, which will decide whether a father's right to privacy and peaceable assembly at the funeral of his son outweighs the free speech rights of a religious group that staged a protest near the solemn event.
See link: http://www.reuters.com/article/idUS19757......20101006
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
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Mr. Mystoffelees Inner circle I haven't changed anyone's opinion in 3623 Posts
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On 2010-10-23 10:40, Destiny wrote: Agree completely! Would you like to buy an "E"?
Also known, when doing rope magic, as "Cordini"
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critter Inner circle Spokane, WA 2653 Posts
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I'm not sure when common decency would have done so. Anywhere from the 1800's to now we've had the Klan burning crosses in peoples' yards. Granted, it's not nearly on the same level as desecrating a Mother's ceremony to grieve over her son, but they both come from the same place.
Medeival chivalry wasn't much better. The Crusades, the Inquisition... The "Dark" Ages? My own ancestors looted churches. We could try going back to classical times or earlier. One group burning anothers' Temples... Nah, the zealots haven't gotten any better or worse. They've always stagnated.
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers |
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gdw Inner circle 4884 Posts
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On 2010-10-23 12:00, critter wrote: Yup.
"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."
I won't forget you Robert. |
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APC Inner circle Los Angeles 1213 Posts
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The church is coming to my school in a few weeks to protest the large community of homosexuals, lesbians, and straight allies on campus. There is going to be a large counterprotest, but I too feel that in a lot of ways this just adds attention and gives them importance. However, for this counterprotest students are actually getting donations from everyone who shows up to donate to the people the church are hatefully fighting against. It will be an interesting experience and I'll be sure to post my thoughts after it occurs.
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critter Inner circle Spokane, WA 2653 Posts
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Nice. Let us know how it goes.
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers |
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hou_dini Regular user 103 Posts
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It's nice to see a great discussion! The Patriot Guard wishes to shield people from protestors--yet who/what gives them the right to determine who shall be shielded from what sort of "speech"? If they set themsevlves up as protector's, what constitutes the need for protection (and who determines it)? All I'm saying here is that this comes close to vigilantism and a restriction on freedom of speech.
The Phelps mob is always careful to protest on public property where they can make the arguement that it is their 1st amendment right. I've never seen or heard of Phelps being on private property--they know the law too well (Lobo--inside my home is private property and a whole different matter, I can guarntee what would happen if they came in uninvited. Now the sidewalk in front of my house is public property--that's a different story). The Skokie vs KKK incident albeit limited to one town worked. FYI, they chose Skokie because of the high percentage of Jewish Holocaust survivors that lived there (approx 80% of the town pop). My main point is this, whether it works or not--If you ignore them, eventually they will go away. Counterprotests et al. do nothing but feed the insanity. You fall into their trap because you afford them the publicity and notoriety which they seek. Without it they're nothing. They will eventually quit when they find out that noone wants to play. Chrystal. thanks for caring (no sarcasm here) but my Mom is long gone. My point about my funeral is that everyone who knows me well knows that I would welcome a bunch of pinheaded morons to protest my passing--I'd be laughing my *** off and everyone there would be having a good time watching the free entertainment. Seriously. Again, I love good discussion and I sincerely do not support Phelps and his ilk, but I must defend their right to say what they say (not what they say). Know what I'm sayin? |
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hou_dini Regular user 103 Posts
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Clarification: I must defend their right to say what they say, the act of speech, not the content.
Chrystal--forgot, thanks for mentioning the Gypsies, makes my ancestors happy! |
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ed rhodes Inner circle Rhode Island 2889 Posts
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On 2010-10-23 12:43, baskitboy5 wrote: I'm thinking you shouldn't have a "counterprotest." Be there, wear shirts that make your point, and have a bar-b-que with burgers and ribs and chicken and music. Make a party of it and completely ignore them as if it was just a coincidence you happened to be there on that day.
"...and if you're too afraid of goin' astray, you won't go anywhere." - Granny Weatherwax
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ed rhodes Inner circle Rhode Island 2889 Posts
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You have the right to free speech. You do not have the right to force people to listen to you. If the funeral party wants the Patriot Guard standing between them and the Phelps, that's their perogative. (sp)
"...and if you're too afraid of goin' astray, you won't go anywhere." - Granny Weatherwax
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gdw Inner circle 4884 Posts
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Hou-dini, those who want protection should be the ones who determine the what and need.
As for restricting free speech, standing in front of someone is not restricting their speech. Similarly, they have a right to free speech, they do NOT have a right to an audience.
"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."
I won't forget you Robert. |
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gdw Inner circle 4884 Posts
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On 2010-10-23 17:03, ed rhodes wrote: Lol, yeah, same thing I was saying. Phone didn't update to show the post before I typed mine.
"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."
I won't forget you Robert. |
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Posted: Oct 23, 2010 02:07 am 
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