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MiNiM Regular user New Zealand 111 Posts |
[quote]On 2003-07-14 07:36, Peter Marucci wrote:
Pete Biro refers to Jay Marshall; I'll refer to Jay's biggest reaction with the rings, at a convention show where about three other performers had all done the rings and Jay came out holding a set of rings. No words. He looked at the audience, looked at the rings, and tossed the rings offstage. Brought down the house! In all fairness, Peter, you are talking about a show by magicians, for magicians at a magic convention. That has nothing whatsoever to do with the real world! Magic tricks can be a lot like songs: hits are mostly made by hype, by classics/standards achieve their status because people love them! Cheers, Bill
He asked me if I liked card tricks. I said "No." He did three. (W. Somerset Maugham)
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Swami Bill Regular user Le Monde 135 Posts |
Ted, et.al.- Cellini did his rings on the street at the International Buskerfest in Denver this June. It was pretty much like the DVD but the audience was right on top of him. He just stepped back a few paces, did his brief intro and BAM! It was stunning! But the routine is very subtle an not everyone can pull it off.
Which brings me to my next comment: The rings are so over done that it takes a superior performer (Haydn, Biro, Cellini, Capehart) to make it happen. This is not an effect for us mere mortals. Maybe we should wait 'til 2020 to pull out the rings again? - Bill
That's MISTER Swami Bill to you.
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MiNiM Regular user New Zealand 111 Posts |
[quote]On 2003-07-16 18:04, Swami Bill wrote:
The rings are so over done that it takes a superior performer (Haydn, Biro, Cellini, Capehart) to make it happen. This is not an effect for us mere mortals. Maybe we should wait 'til 2020 to pull out the rings again? Over done? Where? To magicians, maybe, but when did you last see, or hear of anyone seeing any of the above gentlemen performing on the streets of a town near you? OK, if your performing metier is in magic clubs and conventions, maybe, but to the lay public, the rings, like cups and balls are legendary but rarely seen. You might just as well say 'let's all stop doing card tricks for twenty years' on the same basis! Hmm, now there's an idea! Cheers, Bill
He asked me if I liked card tricks. I said "No." He did three. (W. Somerset Maugham)
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Whit Haydn V.I.P. 5449 Posts |
The rings, like the cups and balls, are classic tricks that I believe every magician should learn. I think convention contests, especially for the young, should be limited to such classics.
There is so much to learn about presentation, misdirection, and technique in these two routines. The challenge in these familiar classics, is to make them entertaining one more time... Pete: The strong reaction you were getting was mostly sympathy... ;-) |
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Scott F. Guinn Inner circle "Great Scott!" aka "Palms of Putty" & "Poof Daddy G" 6586 Posts |
Amen to that, Whit!
I do the rings in virtually EVERY show I do. I even do them table-hopping at restaurants in addition to my kids shows and corporate platform shows, and standup in comedy clubs. I have NEVER failed to get an excellent reaction. many times, when I have had a brief spot on a variety show, the only thing I did was the rings--and I've got a lot of bookings from those times. magicians often knock the rings as been overdone, but few laymen have ever seen them inperson. magicians often ask what the motivation is for them. What is the motivation of having someone take a card, only to replace it in the deck so you can try to locate it? Or to hand someone a little foam bunny rabbit? Or to make a coin jump from one hand to the other? Or to make someone's finger ring penetrate through a string? Or...? Magic has its own intrinsic logic within the context of the routine (or at least it should...) Maybe you don't do the rings because you don't like them, and that's fine. But I have received standing ovations many times for my ring routine. To make a blanket statement that all laymen hate them or are bored by them or that they are pointless is just ludicrous--I know better from personal experience. Chris Capehart's routine is outstanding. I use two of the moves in it in my routine. But to make a routine truly powerful, you have to infuse it with YOU! Richard ross had the most beautiful routine I've ever seen--even more so than Cellini's, IMO. But I would never do it, because it just isn't me. If you are a dramatic, graceful performer, i'd recommend it. If you are looking for a strong but very funny routine, I don't think you could do much better than Whit's. He KILLS with it. I've seen him perform it for both magicians and laymen on several occasions, and he absolutely knocks them out. I've also seen Pete perform his routine firsthand--and the audience LOVED it. same with marc DeSouza. Some magicians don't like sponge balls, either--but few can honestly say they don't play powerfully, in spite of the fact that there is no logic to a grown man carrying around "clown noses" or "mini nerf balls." As has been said, classics ARE classics for one simple reason--they're GOOD!
"Love God, laugh more, spend more time with the ones you love, play with children, do good to those in need, and eat more ice cream. There is more to life than magic tricks." - Scott F. Guinn
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Adam V Special user 603 Posts |
Overdone or not, I've still seen plenty of ring routines fall flat on an audience of laypeople. Not because they'd seen them before, but because the routines themselves were simply boring. Most magicians I've seen perform them are simply there on stage performing moves with some music in the background. I'm sure they think it's poetic and beautiful but their audiences sure don't.
However, just like every other magic effect under the sun the rings can be fantastic when performed in a certain way. I've already mentioned how much I like Haydn's routine, I also love Chuck Fayne's (same as Marshall's, throws the rings off stage) and The Amazing Jonathon's ("They're already linked, that saves us a lot of time"). I haven't seen Cellini's routine so unfortunately I can't comment on that. I think what I'm trying to say is that I do enjoy the rings, I just don't enjoy the standard "waving your arms about the music" routines that I've seen all too often.
Adam V - 9 out of 10 dentists recommend him.
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JamesinLA Inner circle Los Angeles 3400 Posts |
I agree with Whit's and Scott's views completely. However, per Adam's post above, there are certain phases of the rings that do bore me. I find myself bored by any of the figures. In my heart and in my opinion they dilute the main magical effect: solid through solid. Therefore, I have no figures in any of my routines, except for the long chain, which, I'm not sure should be classed as a figure.
I do a 3 ring routine, Whit's 4 ring routine, and my own comedy 8 ring routine (which is very fast and which has the benifit of involving a lot of spectators directly) and none of them involve figures. Of course, this is just my personal take on it. Whit, do you consider any of your moves as figures in your 4 ring routine? Jim
Oh, my friend we're older but no wiser, for in our hearts the dreams are still the same...
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Peter Marucci Inner circle 5389 Posts |
Pete Biro writes: "If they [the egg bag, the linking rings, etc.] are that bad, how come so many pros use them and they have been with us forever?"
Many of the signers of the Declaration of Independence were slave owners; does that mean we should have continued slavery? Just because something has been around for a long time doesn't make it right or good. And a pro can be just a wrong as rank beginner. Whether the rings are overdone or not is irrelevant. There's so much better stuff out there, why do something that has no connection with the audience, is like nothing ever seen before (just WHAT are those rings supposed to be?), and is usually done with absolutely NO motivation whatsoever? |
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MiNiM Regular user New Zealand 111 Posts |
Quote:
On 2003-07-18 09:02, Peter Marucci wrote: I can't think of any magic effect or prop that really stands up to that sort of scrutiny! Why produce rabbits? And why out of a top hat? Why pluck coins out of the air - what a cheapskate - why not $50 and $100 bills? (actually there's a routine like that in Bruce Elliotts 'Magic as a Hobby' - makes a whole lot more sense than Misers Dream!) Why playing cards? (outside of a casino or a card game they make no sense). And what on earth are those cups and balls supposed to represent? And as for those change bags on a stick, and all of those trick boxes that look like nothing on earth and can only be to hide the action! Why pick on the poor little rings? Mere familiarity of a prop is not really any justification for using it (or not) to do magic. If you're out on the street, are you trying to imply 'hey, I just found these ordinary cups in the rubbish and look what I can do with them?' I think most people accept that a magicians props are just that - every tradesman has his toolkit, this stuff is ours. As to whether there's much better stuff out there, that is surely in the eye of the beholder, and I'm delighted that not everyone wants to do them, cos if they were as ubiquitous as card tricks they would probably lose the charm and mystique that I think they have! For me, the rings play well for kids and adults, they pack flat, are pretty well angle proof, reset instantly, and look and sound good. Their only drawback is if someone loudly demands to examine them, but then that applies to lots of props! (When I was first doing rings (8 ring set then) I gave some to a girl to examine, and she said (loudly) 'I'd rather examine the ones you're holding!') I now use three rings and don't hand them out! Cheers, Bill
He asked me if I liked card tricks. I said "No." He did three. (W. Somerset Maugham)
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Peter Marucci Inner circle 5389 Posts |
Bill writes: "Why pick on the poor little rings?"
Probably because I have NEVER seen them done well, and I've seen literally hundreds of people do them. And everything else you mention that I use I have some motivation and justification for using the props. Frankly, I didn't mean to single out the rings. I also hate the cups and balls (wotinhell are those cups supposed to be anyway?). And I have NEVER seen a magician pull a rabbit out of a hat. (Although I have seen one or two absolute bozos wearing a top hat with a tux!) |
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RandyStewart Inner circle Texas (USA) 1989 Posts |
Quote:
On 2003-07-18 19:40, Peter Marucci wrote: They do that and why? |
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Jim Snack Inner circle 1338 Posts |
I can understand how Peter feels, particularly if he has never seen the Linking Rings done well, but isn't that true of any magic effect?
Magic occurs when the audience experiences the feelings of awe and wonder, and as magicians we have a responsibility to create that experience whether it is with Linking Rings, an Egg Bag, Cups and Balls or whatever. Rings are not the problem, the problem is with performers who perform them before they have mastered even the basic moves. I've always maintained that if you are going to perform standard material, then you should set the standard. Do that with a set of Linking Rings and you will create magic for your audiences. |
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RandyStewart Inner circle Texas (USA) 1989 Posts |
Quote:
On 2003-07-18 20:39, Jim Snack wrote: That sounded vaguely important and worthy of re-mention. Thanks Jim! |
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Peter Marucci Inner circle 5389 Posts |
Randy Stewart asks: "They do that (pull a rabbit out of a hat) and why?"
Well, in the early part of the 1700s in southern England, a woman named Mart Toft became notorious when she supposedly gave birth to rabbits. It was quite a sensation at the time and, magic evolved -- then as now -- at a geological rate! So magicians began pulling rabbits from unlikely places. Since the tall silk hat was rapidly replacing the tall beaver-skin hat, it was a logical step for magicians to use something that every man at an evening show would have with him -- a silk top hat. And from it, pull a rabbit, to show that you were "up on the news" (even though it was 50 or so years out of date). It became such a common trick that it eventually became the symbol of the conjuror to this day -- even among those who have no idea why it is done! |
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Jim Snack Inner circle 1338 Posts |
Thanks Randy,
As Tommy Wonder said on one of his recent DVD's (while discussing Zombie, another much mis-performed trick), "It's not wise to blame the piano for the music being played." |
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Peter Marucci Inner circle 5389 Posts |
Jim Snack writes: "As Tommy Wonder said on one of his recent DVD's (while discussing Zombie, another much mis-performed trick),
"It's not wise to blame the piano for the music being played." Of course, even Horowitz couldn't play well on a mis-tuned piano! |
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Kozmo V.I.P. 5473 Posts |
how about this.....theres better stuff than the rings...yes, cellini can make magic with them....and perhaps chris capehart....but for the mortal magi...me....well it looks like metal plunking together...well to tell the truth...i have never done the rings...because i think they would look like they look when all the terrible ring performances i have seen in my life.....well what they look like....and to tell the truth...theres better stuff out there....tons of great magic...cups and balls...chop cup....bill to lemon....some card stuff....some rope stuff but not much....rope tricks look like rope tricks to a lay person (that will surely get it going)...pn...big deal!....how many times can a lay audience see that....it doesn't matter who does it....i used to do it....but it just wasn't that strong...theres better stuff....i want to be the guy that does the best stuff...dont you?...
and besides that....on the streets....this IS a street forum right?...the guys who get the biggest hats do the least amount of magic....gazzo...have we talked about him...he gets big hats...hes thinks less is better.....or nick nickolas....huge hats....hes the man.... well one of them....more comedy than magic....gazzo basis his whole show around 1 trick...and he kills them...they don't walk away!....cause hes entertaining....cellini says it doesn't matter what trick you do....as long as you entertain them....funny is money....but cellini does a lot of magic during his show...a lot...becuase he doesn'thave that personality to build like gazzo...he relies on great magic..so i guess theres no answer here....isn't this confusing.... look it...if the rings works for you...god bless....but to me...i hate the rings...always will.....inless they are in cellinis hands...then i might watch..... koz |
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Adam V Special user 603 Posts |
Nick Nicholas performed here in the Melbourne a few weeks ago. He really opened my eyes to the world of street magic. Namely, you can absolutely suck at it and people will still gasp. While I found his act very funny, his technique was pathetic! He did the world's worst triumph routine, followed by the shonkiest looking cups and balls that I have ever seen in my life!
However, at the end of the day people loved him because of his humour and attitude. I used to say to myself "I'll do street stuff one day, but I should wait until my chops are a little better." Now I realise that all I have to do is wait for my cahoonies to double in size and just get out there!
Adam V - 9 out of 10 dentists recommend him.
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Kozmo V.I.P. 5473 Posts |
adam,
your chops will get better when you start doing the streets!...its the best palce to p-ractice...and to find what works and whaty doesn't...like say...the rings....its about funny....and nick is the proe all...along with gazzo...gazzo is a fine magicain but does very little magic...nick and gazzo are number one and number 2 in this world of street performeers...want to amke a living doing magic...check out those guys!....funny is money!.... koz |
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JimMaloney Inner circle 1184 Posts |
Quote:
On 2003-07-18 09:02, Peter Marucci wrote: The rings are supposed to be just that: rings. The motivation for linking them is that it is impossible. Any questions? -Jim
Books and Magazines for sale -- more than 200 items (Last updated January 17th, 2014. Link goes to public Google Doc.)
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