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JediSange
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New user
Richmond, Virginia
4 Posts

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Hey,

My name is Austin DeVinney and I have been performing close up magic professionally for a little over a year now, going on two. Before performing professionally I spent the better part of a year or two just studying, practicing, and performing on the street. You could say I am fairly new, but I certainly do not view my talents as amateur (although to contrast I certainly do not claim to be an expert, as I am always learning and open minded).

Anyways, the point of that was just to introduce myself and my perspective on what I am going to discuss. I have never posted here so I felt that a bit of credibility was needed before I opened such a big can of worms. None the less, here it goes:

I do not understand or respect the magic community as it is. I keep up with the Magic Café forums a bit, talk to my mentors, and study my magic... then I go out and perform it and make money. It is a relatively drama free career that I pursue and enjoy. Mind you, these are not my ONLY views on the community... I respect magic in numerous ways, not just as a profession (but as an art, as a trade secret, etc).

Case to point, what got this into my head is the following thread:

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......orum=109

I was reading through this to see if Spello Change was worth my time. All I found here was uninformative dribbling about how people steal so much from other people, credibility this, I don't respect this or that... just rambling. I do not understand the need for this drama.

People spend too much of their time arguing and not enough performing and getting better. I'm sorry, but "respected posters" are not respectable in my eyes. The real respected opinions come from people like Jeff McBride, Michael Vincent (to name two... there are many, many magicians that could be substituted there) and other professionals that make a LIVING doing magic, not sitting on forums talking trash about others. Excuse the bit of hostility here, but it is quite aggravating coming to one of the few trusted forums for magic and seeing such childish behavior.

It is not a war. It is not high school.

Again, I'm sorry that my first post here is of this nature... but I felt the need to come out publicly and say that the attitudes I see around me are simply sub par.

TL;DR... The magic community is too polarized. You all seem like you are constantly at war with each others respect. It's silly and from a fresh perspective, it is only hurting the art.

Take it for what you will. Be gentle. >.> Also, I did not know what forum to put this in... feel free to move it. Thanks.
"Do not be afraid to die. Be afraid of the unlived life." - Mark Twain

www.youtube.com/JediSange
Billgussen
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Central Japan
498 Posts

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Welcome to the Internet.

People who take the time to post have an opinion. If you don't, then you don't post. That means that 99% of people out there either just read or skim the posts without making comments of their own. When people do post, it is often with an agenda in mind.

My "filter" is set pretty loosely, so I can skim through the opinionated stuff to finally get to the good parts with useful advice from good, experienced people.

I come from other communities, and the signal-to-noise ratio in the Café is actually pretty good. Other magic sites are somewhat worse, and, say, political sites are just depressing.

What I guess I'm saying is that the people posting (including myself) do not necessarily reflect the community as a whole. They're just the ones who have the loudest voices.

Bill
Cyberqat
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Inner circle
You can tell I work on the net from my
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As the man said. Opinions are like ***s, everyone has one and most of the time they are full of...

And that includes mine... and *yours*!

Don't start feeling too smugly superior, 'cause you are here posting rather then out there performing.

And, if you care so little about what happens here, why bother to post?

The fact of the matter is that you, just like everyone else, are enjoying the sound of your own voice.

Myself, I am at least honest and self-aware enough to admit that's what I'm doing.

Oh, and I respect people who are great performers for their performances. I respect people who are great orators for their oratory. I respect people who are great intellects for their ideas. And I respect great philosophers for their philosophy. And they are seldom all the same person.

What I don't respect are people who get off on sitting around and wagging their fingers at other people while mouthing simplistic platitudes and feeling smugly superior.

Which are you?
It is always darkest just before you are eaten by a grue.
JediSange
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Richmond, Virginia
4 Posts

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No need to go on the defensive Smile Rather than trying to objectify my words because they hurt you in some fashion, why not try see the point?

Magicians are at odds with each other for trivial and childish reasons. Do you agree or disagree with this statement? Stop trying to belittle the person behind the words and start trying to affect a change in the art you so ardently love. =)
"Do not be afraid to die. Be afraid of the unlived life." - Mark Twain

www.youtube.com/JediSange
Mary Mowder
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Sacramento / Elk Grove, CA
3649 Posts

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Dear JediSange,

There is a lot of civil discourse on the Café. I think most of us avoid topics or posters that degenerate into squabbles.

I've been associated with "The Magic Community" and a professional Magician for quite a while and as a group they are wonderful people.

Of course individuals within a group may vary but Magicians (some that didn't even know us) have been very generous to my partner Tom and me in catastrophic circumstance. Magicians have taught me and advised me for no recompense. Magicians often perform for charitable events (even though they are often treated badly).

Magicians are a creative and funny lot who see the world in a variety of strange and wonderful ways.

You are new to Magic, so you haven't met as many Magicians as I have. Give it time. You'll grow to love them as a group.

Disarray is not too big a problem, it is part of the human condition.

- Mary Mowder
Cyberqat
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You can tell I work on the net from my
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I disagree. On the contrary I find the sense of brotherhood here among professionals and amateurs in all walks of life nothing short of remarkable.

You, on the other hand, are a troll.

Do you agree or disagree with that statement?

And you still havent answered why you are still here. So its your turn to answer questions.
It is always darkest just before you are eaten by a grue.
Mary Mowder
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Sacramento / Elk Grove, CA
3649 Posts

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I meant compensation not recompense.

By the way JediSange, I see you're new to the Café as well, welcome. Look around and get to know us.

Your "Hello and Howdy" was unusual but we can get past that. I'm sure we'll get along better in the future. We do all share an interest in Magic.

- Mary Mowder
JediSange
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Richmond, Virginia
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Thanks for the welcome, Mary. If only you all could be so kind. Smile

But I'm not really trying to become an active part in the community, to be honest. There are too many people ready to argue (regardless of what the happy few say). I just felt the need to publicly express this view because it becomes rather annoying trying to find out if an effect is worth my money and all I read is squabbling about it.

From a fairly new perspective it is just a turn off trying to seek guidance in magic. If I ask about a person or an effect, 3 out of 5 times the person I'm asking has an opinion and a story to go along with it at the ready. I honestly don't care how many version of a trick there are, how original you think you can be, etc. This has been frustrating me to no end. =\

If anyone has advice on how to weed through that I'd be more than happy to hear it.
"Do not be afraid to die. Be afraid of the unlived life." - Mark Twain

www.youtube.com/JediSange
Mary Mowder
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Sacramento / Elk Grove, CA
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Dear JediSange,

This is a common problem for those beginning in Magic and to some extent since you are asking for the help you kind of have to accept the help as given and make of it what you will or can.

I can remember being very frustrated at being shown several versions of an effect when all I really wanted was one. The confusion factor of seeing several versions of one trick while trying to retain the first version in memory is extreme. We all go through this, you'll get through it too, if you stick with it.

I don't know if you're aware but you did come on pretty negatively for a newcomer and since I know you don't like that kind of stuff I'm sure that was not your intention. If you can get Cyberqat mad (one of the nicest guys here) you should consider that you might be coming on a little strong.

Anyway I hope you do stay and give it a chance. I've been a Pro. for many years and I've learned a lot here and made a few friends as well. Hope to see you in the fora.

PM me what kind of Magic you like or currently do and I'll send you some clear suggestions.

- Mary Mowder
funsway
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old things in new ways - new things in old ways
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While agreeing with your sentiments, I am a bit worried about your view that "real respected opinions" come from performing professionals. Magic does not happen in the minds of performing magciains -- it happens in the minds of spectators. Thus, anyone offering experience on how a lay persons think about magic, what they expect as entertainment, why they come to magic shows, etc. may be more vlauable that opinions of professionals. Such opinions may be more "credible" or "relevant" than the opinions from others, but all opinions are "real" and to be learned from.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst



ShareBooks at www.eversway.com * questions at funsway@eversway.com
Cyberqat
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You can tell I work on the net from my
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Mary is handling this very nicely.

Seeing as how this started by rubbing this cyber-cat's fur the wrong way. I'm going to /Plonk out now.

Perhaps we will be able to start fresh in a new thread.

I will leave you, however, with this one piece of advice. If you take it to heart I promise you it will help you in life.

Absolutely the WRONG way to come into ANY social group and be accepted is by making the first words out of your mouth a critique of that group.

I don't know what it is about the current generation of young adults that leads to this behavior but I've seen it enough times in the past 10 years or so to wonder.
Maybe its an incredibly mild and prevalent version of autism. Whatever it is, it speaks to *zero* social skills. And getting along in life is mostly about social skills.
It is always darkest just before you are eaten by a grue.
JediSange
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Richmond, Virginia
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Thanks again for the advice Mary, but multiple versions wasn't really the problem so much... I enjoy knowing a lot of handling and effects.

I see now I did not really connect my two points, with regards to funsway's post. I was not saying that amateur opinions aren't as credible so much, but rather that it is rare that I go to a professional and have them be like "Justin Miller? Nah man stay away from him he stole this and that, he does this and this to scam money from people." I have NEVER sent Michael Vincent and email and got a response like that, and that is why I respect him so much.

That is all I'm saying -- When I seek guidance in the community, all I see are childish opinions about people that have no real merit. I suppose this thread was attempting to be an "eye opening" more so than anything else. I respect that you guys have made friends and such within the circle, but with as common as this has been happening to me lately I highly doubt you all are unfamiliar with overly opinionated magicians (again, not just opinions... but these strong biases against other magicians over silly matters).

Curious, did anyone actually READ the thread I linked? Did it not kill you how much pointless bickering there was in there? If you are already aware or unaffected by the matters in the thread, then I feel my point is a dead horse. To me reading threads like that make me want to stop being involved in the magic community all together. And trust me, there are MANY like it.

And also is Cyber is one of your nicer members then I am definitely not sticking around past the life of this thread Smile No offense, but I've ignored him since my second post here.
"Do not be afraid to die. Be afraid of the unlived life." - Mark Twain

www.youtube.com/JediSange
Bob1Dog
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Wife: It's me or this houseful of
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I have to jump in here. There are so many nice folks in the Café who have helped me in so many ways I can't count them, except perhaps by the number of my posts. I only have 360-plus posts, but rest assured I have learned something from each and every one of them. This is a wonderful community and if all you are looking for is negativity, then my friend, that's all you will find. No need to respond because this is my first and last view of this thread. Welcome to the Café!
What if the Hokey Pokey really IS what it's all about? Smile

My neighbor rang my doorbell at 2:30 a.m. this morning, can you believe that, 2:30 a.m.!? Lucky for him I was still up playing my drums.
Dougini
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The Beautiful State Of Maine
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Quote:
On 2010-10-25 21:06, Billgussen wrote:
I come from other communities, and the signal-to-noise ratio in the Café is actually pretty good. Other magic sites are somewhat worse...
Bill


I came to the Café 8 years ago. I had tried other sites. I was so happy to find this group, I stayed. At other sites, I had been criticized, made fun of, and noticed the same behavior over and over, before I discovered this wonderful group!

Since then, I have really discovered the true meaning of "Love your neighbor as yourself". I will give you a perfect example:

I just suffered a devastating loss. Due to an unforeseen foreclosure, I lost everything I have ever owned. In an emergency move, I came up to Maine from Florida. I have been here about four months. No job, no real money to speak of. No car. I did post my circumstance to someone who was about to give up magic. He was discouraged.

I said, even though I had lost everything, including four steamer trunks full of magic I have collected since 1977, I learned that the real magic is inside you. You don't need props to do magic. A few coins and a pencil vanish can do more than a big box of stuff!

Well, the PM's came pouring in. What's my address? They wanted to send me some things...in a week or two, everything that was really important to me that was lost was replaced! By people who don't even know me!!! I am still moved to tears by this. You wanna talk about LOVE? It's here, my friend!

This is the finest group of human beings I have ever imagined. I have never met any of them! In November, I may have to leave for a while. My free ride up here in Maine has run its course. I will be back though! I always look for a chance to "pay it forward". Magic is much more than tricks and secrets. Yeah, we're human. Feathers get ruffled. But The Magic Café is TRUE magic!

I will never forget this group of Magicians that truly help Magicians!!!

Doug
mediamonk
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Walla Walla
103 Posts

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I think that one of the things that makes this site great is the amount of differing opinions, biases and personalities. There are a number of people here who only want to do magic, some that have loads of history and knowledge behind them, crediting gurus, exposure stopping crusaders, opinionated genuises, outspoken hacks and more. We all fall into some category. There is a lot of wisdom to be found here. Find your niche. I'm here because I'm the only magician I know of in Walla Walla. The Café gives me an opportunity to learn and discuss with other magicians. Hopefully it can do the same for everyone.

Stephen
"There are two ways of living life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is." -Albert Einstein
StephenP
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I welcome you too, Austin! It's just kind of weird to join a forum, then bring up one thread that put you off so much it prompted your opening salvo here. When you preface a post with a phrase like "no offense" and then say a bunch of things you anticipate might offend, it kind of makes your preemptive disclaimer worthless.

As for the "uninformative dribbling" in the thread you ask if anyone read...yeah, I read it. I got what I needed from the topic in the very first post, which was written by a magician who was familiar with the creator and the product and has been doing this for 40 years. Sometimes you have to glean the relevant information, which in this case was right up top. Of course you are free to read the whole sordid exchange, but it seems like you are casting aspersions on a community of tens of thousands as a result.

Nobody who's spent any amount of time here could credibly say that ALL they see is childishness. I've seen mostly professionalism and gotten more info and advice than I ever imagined. I usually see more postings from intermediates and pros than amateurs, and helpful comments from folks like Dougini and Mary are more than enough for me to ignore the nonsense. If reading a few disagreements between people makes you want to "stop being involved in the magic community all together" then I can only assume you're a glass-half-empty kind of guy who ran out of slush powder.

As far as your last comment, Cyber has been one of the nicest members to me since I got here. You shared your background to add cred to your intent to "open a big can of worms," then judged an Inner Circle member's worth and shut him out based on the two responses he added to your can. I think saying "No offense, but I'm ignoring you" with cute little emoticons is itself offensive.

What's weird is that beyond all of that I sense someone who might actually enjoy the positive elements of this community and even add a valid and welcome voice to the proceedings. Your whole first paragraph about how you started in magic is similar to what I see myself doing. You sound intelligent and have a real sense of the "always a student" nature that I also believe in. I'd encourage you to stay and look around and see if you can't find something useful. I do every day, but I'm pretty new. Based on what you've said I'm sure I could learn something from you.

Seriously, it's not much different in here than it is out in the real world. Sometimes feathers get ruffled. Sometimes friends fight. In a way, life itself is just one big magic trick, and we won't find out exactly how it works until it's over. I say ignore the drivel and enjoy the illusion while you can.

Group hug.

All the best,
Stephen

P.S. If you do split, don't forget to contribute to my New Guy Donation Drive on the way out:
http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......rum=41&2
Billgussen
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Elite user
Central Japan
498 Posts

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Quote:
On 2010-10-26 12:11, JediSange wrote:
That is all I'm saying -- When I seek guidance in the community, all I see are childish opinions about people that have no real merit. I suppose this thread was attempting to be an "eye opening" more so than anything else.


My problem with your previous posts has been summed up in this statement. You're trying to open everybody else's eyes while keeping yours forcibly closed.

The only way you're going to benefit from the tons of good information here on the Café is to start dealing with the fact that you can't control how people respond. The Internet will respond how they respond, and trying to regulate them, to paraphrase Heinlein, is like herding cats. You not only waste your own time...but you also annoy the cats. If you want to get something out of this or any other forum, the attitude that needs to change is not everybody else's but your own. And since that's the only thing you CAN change, it makes sense to start there.

Bill
Wizard of Oz
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Most people wish I didn't have
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The World English Dictionary defines "forum" as:
"a medium for open discussion."

This is a forum.
Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.
DWRackley
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Chattanooga, TN
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I don't like negative people. Guess what? They exist.

It's a crowded place, and odds are you're going to run into one or two before you die. (If we take the Genesis story of Eden literally, then at some point there were four humans with an entire planet all to themselves, and one of them committed murder!)

Where is your filter? It's been my experience that the only view we have of the world is through our own eyes, and if one can only see childish behavior, it is a most d***ing accusation of his own attitudes. We find what we are looking for.

My best suggestion is to forget this thread completely, as most (not all) of us soon will, and start fresh with "Hi! Name's Bob. Like Magic." and let's see where it goes from there.

I'm here to learn. Even the (relatively infrequent) bickering teaches me something. Now would be a good time to ask yourself, what are you here for?
...what if I could read your mind?

Chattanooga's Premier Mentalist

Donatelli and Company at ChattanoogaPerformers.com

also on FaceBook
Pakar Ilusi
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He has left? Too bad.
"Dreams aren't a matter of Chance but a matter of Choice." -DC-
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