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DT3 Inner circle Hill Valley 1920 Posts |
Man, I hate not having the search engine to go to here.
Did anybody else get the email from Docc about this routine he is releasing? Looks very good, and I was just wondering if any of you out there knew any more about it. D. P.S. Wow, does he write great copy or what? Even if you weren't interested in the item itself it's a GREAT story. |
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tpratt38 Loyal user New Orleans 279 Posts |
If it is from Docc you can be sure it will be good.
I just ordered mine. Canasta is a classic...
Mental Threads....
Invoking your thoughts one thread at a time... Creator of Voodoo Dowels |
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David Alexander Special user 623 Posts |
I am familiar with both Canasta's routine and method and Docc's routine and method. Docc's is superior in that his will work every time while Canasta always took a chance.
While you may be able to figure out a method from the description, this is a professional routine and you are paying both for the method, the presentation, and Docc's insights into what makes this work. What Docc is charging is nowhere near its real value. |
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Docc Hilford V.I.P. 377 Posts |
Thanks David.
Here's the description: Here is what you would see if you watched the performance. Two women join the mentalist. A woman FREELY chooses either a red deck or a blue deck to use. NO EQUIVOQUE! The deck is really shown and shuffled. She holds the cards behind her back, mixes them more, then freely chooses three INDIVIDUAL cards. Each one is placed in a different pocket of her choice. Another woman FREELY mixes her deck, then makes completely FREE choices of three individual cards and three of the mentalist’s pockets. There is absolutely no forces of cards or pockets. The first woman takes the card from her breast pocket. It’s the 3 of Hearts. The mentalist takes the card from his shirt pocket. It’s also the 3 of Hearts! The woman removes the card from her front pocket. It’s the 9 of Spades. The mentalist shows the card placed in his front pocket is also the 9 of Spades! Finally, the mentalist announces he believes the chosen card in his back pocket is the Queen of Clubs. He grabs it and it is the Queen of Clubs. The woman now shows her last card. And, you guessed it, it’s the Queen of Clubs! Three identical cards and three identical pockets are chosen by two different women! This trick is so beautiful to watch; it fools magicians and mentalists alike. There are a host of subtleties, yet it almost works itself. There are no specially printed cards, no tailored jackets or pants. In fact, you can go with this one right out of the package. What about the truckload of potential for comic relief here? Plus, the trick is adaptable to work with VIP couples, anniversary parties, weddings, corporate events and just fun party situations. Comes with: Instructions, Special Gimmick and a deck of cards. A few friends have review copies, but they're busy working. LOL It will be available from Murphy's Magic next week. If you want more information go to: docchilfordproducts.com/canasta Thanks. |
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joeliron New user Pescara, Abruzzo, Italy 21 Posts |
I have ordered mine!
Thanks Docc! |
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a brown 1968 Elite user 470 Posts |
I think that Docc and Ben Harris in my estimation are the best marketing writers of effect descritions I know. I read them and just want to rush out an buy the product but I don't, rather I wait to see how actual reviews compare with the marekting description.
I cannot comment if this is a great or poor trick since I do not own it but actually find the description quite magical as to how it sparks my interest in the effect. With this effect the write up is what I would see ..OK so looking at the first paragraph . Having seen the lady choose the deck , my memory must have slipped since I don't recall how the deck was shown , spread in the hands or on the table . Did she have a quick glance or a long look . Sadly age has caught up with me and I can't recall if she shuffled the deck or docc took it back and shuffled it and if so how. Did Docc pass the deck to her to put behind her back and then instruct her in a precise way to mix them or was it for the lady to decided . I should know this since this is what I would have seen. How she chooses the cards has faded also just that she did . As for the pocket did she just put the card she wanted into the pocket she wanted or picked a pocket and asked to put a card in it.. Lost from my memory Now of course an effect description has to keep the method from being disclosed that is taken for granted, what I admire about these types of description is that they are sleights of marketing, written in away that in our minds eyes we fill in the gaps that makes the effect as near to perfection as possible . Hands up who in their mind saw the lady pick up a random deck, looked at it shuffled it , put it behind her back , mixed it further and then choose 3 cards at random , dropped into pockets of her choice with little involvement of Docc ? Now if that is excactly the effect , what a brilliant effect , if it is not then brilliant effect description to make me think it was, which I admire We of course can move onto the perspective , that is how the spectator will remember it, however the ad does not say , " this is how it will be recalled " I await some actual reviews Andy |
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Marqus Special user 899 Posts |
I thought about this long & hard and emailed Docc my thoughts.
Then I ordered it BEFORE Docc responded to me. It's the right thing to do even if my thoughts were right on the mark. I stress BEFORE because I guess that I'm a 'Hilford junkie'. BTW, Docc ended up saying that I was "close" but it comes with a deck that...uh, ... let's put it this way - the deck seems like it's going to be an amazing thing! My order was shipped Monday, so I may have it this week. |
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mindpunisher Inner circle 6132 Posts |
>>>>>Now of course an effect description has to keep the method from being disclosed that is taken for granted, what I admire about these types of description is that they are sleights of marketing, written in away that in our minds eyes we fill in the gaps that makes the effect as near to perfection as possible <<<<
Yes it's funny how most effcts don't look like the picture in your mind from the description. Seriously if you can figure out a method from a genuine description then the effect is "usually" not worth the money. If mentalism was like any other product and carried a money back guarantee you would see these "cons" disappearing over night. Sleight of marketing or basic dishonesty? You wouldn't get away with marketing like this in other industry. My drawer is full of crap I have bought over the years. Thank god I learned even if it cost me. |
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entity Inner circle Canada 5060 Posts |
I think that Doc's description is given as from the audience's point of view, what they will perceive and remember.
In the end, what else matters? - entity
email: tomebaxter@icloud.com
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mindpunisher Inner circle 6132 Posts |
If that is the truth? do you go around and get everybody's view in the audience? If not how do you know? that's right you don't! Plus the effect is being sold to a performer not the audience. Its how I percieve it that matters its me that's going to be stuck with it.
I think the audience perception call is just an excuse to misell dodgy products to gullable magicians. Audiences aren't that stupid either. I have drawers full of crap that I was duped into buying with that tired old ploy. I don't have the effect above so I can't comment on that specifically. But I do think its absolutely wrong to use marketing that lies about the products. Give us the description that you "believe" or "hope" the audience will have but also give us the real view from a magi's perspective. |
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entity Inner circle Canada 5060 Posts |
No one is obligated to "give us" anything at all.
It's up to the vendor to decide what to tell you about what he's selling, and it's up to you to decide whether to buy it or not. Some vendors have a good track record for putting out good products. Doc Hilford is one of those people. Effects are designed to be perceived in a certain way by the audience. I don't think that there is anything in the description of this effect that is untrue. In this case, it is a description of that perception, together with Doc Hilford's reputation that appear to be the chosen elements used in the selling of this routine. Whether or not you care for Doc's choices here mindpunisher, is irrelevant to everyone but you. - entity
email: tomebaxter@icloud.com
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mindpunisher Inner circle 6132 Posts |
Entity I am NOT the audience. When I buy an effect I care abut whether it suits me or not. And there is no way you can know how the audience will percieve something. However if you describe how it looks to the mentalist then I have a better idea whether the claims are true or not.
You will find in just about EVERY other forms of commerce there are advertising standards that make an accurate description of the product a legal obligation. Over in the UK you have 21 days to return most items that do not live up to the claims in the ads. I am sure credit card companies wouldn't be very happy if they got requests for money returns from magicians selling goods that don't live up to the hype. I would encourage magicians to start doing it instead of filling their drawers with crap. Or see more money back guarantees if not delighted. I have to disagree some of Docs products are nothing like the hype that went with them. Altough Tom I have to say some your stuff over delivers. |
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a brown 1968 Elite user 470 Posts |
Entity ,
I agree if I write on the Café hints on how a person can improve a double lift , then I am simply offering advice and not obligated to do so and there is no financial gain for me. As mindpunisher stated before I could make my post, here in the UK if you offer a product or service in exchange for money then you are obligated to comply with legal legislation in terms of the product itself and how you market it. My intention has not been to say what Docc has put is incorrect , rather to make it clear it is written first and foremost to maximise sales and therefore profit. It is not written to provide the magic community sufficient information to make an informed opinion as to whether it is suitable for them. To maxmise profits is not wrong but part of business and members should never forget this when making a buying decision. To know if an effect advert is out to max profit or provide the community information to make an informed opinion then look out for a few of the following points : Does it make it clear whether the effect is for close up,parlour,or stage. Does it avoid reference to duality or instant stooges - Both great if you are a pro working for strangers or in a thearte but not good for the majority of hobbiest working for friends Does it make clear not only the technical skill level but also the people managing skills. Does it make clear how quick the reset is Is the description from the layman's actual view point , magicians or the spectators recall.. Or as many do , a mix of all three . Is the description a mix of two or three effects from an ebook , taking the best bits of each Impromptu does not mean taking the layman's deck , going to the toeilet and setting it up in a special full deck order In the last 12 months I have only been caught out once when I purchased an ebook where given the write up , the effect seemed impossbile because the descritption stated" and can use a borrowed deck " Now if you mean by" borrowed deck" , a brand of bike cards with one way backs and you go to the toilets to set all the pointer cards one way then I suggest this was pushing the truth a little far. Entity you mentioned that if a person can read a descritption and know how the effect is done then it must be a poor effect. That is not strictly true , it depends more on the knowledge of the person and what they do in magic. I spend ,most of my time creating effects using simple methods as you know . The first time a friend described to me the crossroads effect he had bought , I provided him with a method to replicate it straight away and it turns out was the method devisd by Ben . I wrote to Ben and told him of additional bits which I had added to strength the effect which he approved of . Does that mean it was a poor effect or I haev a good understanding of certain magical principles and like multiplication tables can having read a description either have a clear understanding of the method or a duplicate method instantly. Before memebrs say I am doing the creators out of money by not buying the effect , let me say I never perform effects using gaffs and Ben Hariss, Lewis Jones or Peter Duffie would testify that the ideas I send back to them are worth more than the cost of the effect in the first place. Andy |
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entity Inner circle Canada 5060 Posts |
Quote:
On 2010-11-04 05:16, a brown 1968 wrote: That wasn't me. I stand by my statements. Magic is unlike most other sales industries. People sell the SECRET along with the props. If including a detailed description in the advertising is sufficient to reveal the secret to the working of the effect, then part of the reason for buying is gone. We are NOT entitled to know anything more than the creator of the effect is willing to share before we buy. If the ads don't answer a buyer's questions, and the investment is sufficient to cause them to hold back, they have the opportunity to contact the seller for more information, as some here have done. - entity
email: tomebaxter@icloud.com
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a brown 1968 Elite user 470 Posts |
Entity
I think one of your posts in esscence says , if the final impact and memory on the spectator is strong then what comes before does not matter and that includes the description . To get to the strong end the performer has to contend with many different elements . Level of skill, venue suitability , type of audience , time frame , the list goes on and on. Entity you have a well rounded set of skills in sleight of hand , happy to perform in various venues etc and therefore in most cases getting to the end and the impact is no issue for you but this often not the case say with a hobbiyst. I could write up a brilliant effect that leaves a lasting memory , the hobbyist buys it but finds out that the description failed to mention the middle deals or forgot to mention it needs a large audience with an instant stooge . The effect is great but not right for this buyer. Therefore good descriptions allows everyone who has a love of magic to determine if an effect is suitable for them . I repeat I do not have an issue with Docc's description it is aimed at generating the most interest and largest sales. I am not a professional magician , I advise a portfolio of clients on business matters. One observation is that generating customer goodwill takes time , when you have it you develop repeat business . However it takes only moments to lose all that good will by poor business practice. If and when I put some of my effects out my aim will be to have a description that will inform the members whether the effects meets their needs and skills . True by doing so I will lose some early sales but the buyers will know that every time the read an effect description I wrote they can trust it and know if they buy the item it will not been stored away never used. On the other hand if I use the max sale approach , my customer will at some time buy an effect they dislike and feel the description rightly or wrongly was at fault. From then on they will distrust all future effects I market even the ones where in fact it would be a perfect match for them and not buy . Therefore in the long term giving an informed description actually generates the most profit and goodwill. You can see several members follow this approach and an equal number the max short term sales approach . I hope with time it shifts the right way Andy |
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entity Inner circle Canada 5060 Posts |
Quote:
On 2010-11-04 03:49, mindpunisher wrote: I would have thought that part of learning mentalism or magic is understanding just that. - entity
email: tomebaxter@icloud.com
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mindpunisher Inner circle 6132 Posts |
Yes we do develop an understanding which we hope will enhance our effects. However as the last poster pointed out these descriptions in marketing are usually there to sell the effect to the performer. And in lots of cases aren't accurate when played in front of an audience.
So why don't we get the two versions? One that mentalist sees and the intended or claimed one? That would allow me touse my "understanding" to a) see if the effect suits me b) If it has a reasonable chance of leaving the impression claimed and not just hype. I have to say Tom your marketing has very little hype and is usually understated if anything. Yet you do deliver what you say and more. From the few products Ive seen from you. Why can't that be the standard? |
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Jheff V.I.P. 402 Posts |
Mindpunisher,
I'll just jump in here with a not-so-subtle plug, if you don't mind. I certainly agree with you about the blurbs, hence the creation of my site. The whole purpose is to give critiques on the marketing and tell you what you get. I've certainly got burned myself to the tune of four figures over the years with stuff that wasn't as advertised or that didn't fit my needs. Sure, I often give my opinion on products, but these opinions are clear and I certainly understand everyone's tastes are different. It's far more important to provide information, than opinions, so the comments on my site are slanted that way. As to the subject of this thread, I've not seen it yet. But when Murphy's gets it, I do plan on getting one and commenting on it on my site. -- Jheff http://www.MarketplaceoftheMind.com
Marketplace of the Mind PARIMENTAL, a 200 page exploration of a classic Martin Gardner principle, is now available!!
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entity Inner circle Canada 5060 Posts |
Quote:
On 2010-11-04 10:18, a brown 1968 wrote: I think that you may misunderstand my comment. What I said was that in the end, what matters is the effect to the audience, what they perceive as having happened. Obviously as performers we also have our own criteria for what is practical or useful to us. My point (again) is that if you feel you need more information and are seriously interested in the effect from the description given, then you are easily able to contact the creator/vendor of the effect for more information, as some here have done to their satisfaction. When Cadillac advertises a car they don't go into specifics. They arrest your interest with the things they think you'll find most desirable about their product. Then you look into it more closely and ask the right questions if you're seriously interested in buying. - entity
email: tomebaxter@icloud.com
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entity Inner circle Canada 5060 Posts |
Quote:
On 2010-11-04 10:36, mindpunisher wrote: Thanks for the kind words. In answer to your question -- Old Hungarian proverb: "If wishes were horses, then beggars would ride." - entity
email: tomebaxter@icloud.com
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