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volto Special user 603 Posts |
A point that I've not seen raised on the Café before - the use of iron and rattan rings, of suspiciously familiar sizes, in chinese martial arts. Since it's a short step from a martial artist to an acrobat, and another short step from acrobat to magician, this seems vaguely plausible as an origin for the rings.
Specifically, Wing Chun Kung Fu. Search for "ring form" "wing chun" for some info. A demonstration: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yf0NOG8FMls Pete Biro referenced rings found at digs of a Roman Theater, dated 200BC, which would predate Wing Chun (1600s AD) by a long way - but not formal chinese martial arts, which apparently go back to Huangdi, 2697 BCE. Note; this isn't research, it's web searching and speculation based on a reference to chinese acrobats and the rings. I'm just speculating on an eastern, rather than western, origin for the trick, on exceptionally flimsy 'evidence'. Maybe just a patter premise, maybe there's something in it...? |
Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
There is also some evidence for a Hungarian origin of the rings.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
Wizard of Oz Inner circle Most people wish I didn't have 5150 Posts |
Good topic Volto.
In contrast to another ancient effect, we can imagine how the Cups and Balls premise arose, since cups are common, utilitarian items found everyday, everywhere. But large rings? How common are they? Yet at one time, somewhere, maybe they were. I don't know the answer, but I'll be watching this thread to find out more.
Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.
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Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
This is nothing but a hunch, but I figure that the linking rings probably started with something that might have been used as a harness ring or a bangle of some sort, perhaps 4 to 6 inches in diameter.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
volto Special user 603 Posts |
Iron rings around 4" in diameter are also used in various branches of Kung Fu for training purposes. They are very heavy, and you wear quite a lot of them at once. They're worn on the wrists like bangles, and around the ankles. They hurt a lot, apparently:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cle54_Twc8k I bet a little bit of this kind of training goes a long way. The difficulty with a lot of martial arts history is that so much of it is fiction and legend - bound up in national and cultural identity - that it's very hard to get to the origin of a technique. I have a few Chinese friends, but none are especially into martial arts history. I suppose if we were seriously pursuing this we'd need a history of the use of large metal rings (4"+), in all fields and all regions, leading up to the relatively recent 'linking rings' trick, with all it's associated refinements and fekes. It's a strange question, maybe more suited to archaeologists. The problem with asking archaeologists anything is that - even if you can catch them sober - in terms of magic, they wouldn't know a trapdoor from a hole in the ground. The romantic in me wants this "ancient Chinese mystery" to actually be an ancient Chinese mystery. It's an interesting patter premise, anyhow. |
Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
If you could find a colony of Ancient Chinese macrame artists, then the whole thing would be fairly well settled.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
Jacques Loyal user North 206 Posts |
Unfortunately, the Chinese linking rings don’t seem to be Chinese. Beside, the jump between a single rattan ring in martial arts training to a set of many metal rings in magic is a bit difficult to accept. If there is a Chinese martial arts source to the linking rings, I think that the “wheels of wind and fire” would be a better candidate since they were used in pairs, sometimes in martial exhibitions by wandering acrobats. They had a diameter from 12 to 18 inches. They seem to originate from Mongolia around the 13th century.
Anyway, if there is an ancient origin to the linking rings, I think that we could speculate that the utilisation of rings in magic may come from using a small hoop in animal acrobatics demonstrations (ex: dog jumping through a ring...). In Bosch painting “the conjuror”, we can see such a ring leaning on the side of the table. Click here to view attached image. |
Jacques Loyal user North 206 Posts |
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Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
The ring on the side of the table in the Bosch painting supposedly represents a fallen halo, according to some of the experts who have analyzed this painting.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
volto Special user 603 Posts |
Interesting. Maybe making a list could help. So here are some notes so far, gathered from previous threads. These are just the salient points made in the threads, not substantiated theories of origin.
http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......&forum=4 http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......m=130&43 1) 'Roman' origin (Pete Biro's 200 BC reference, with archaeological evidence) 2) The knight Damatus performing for Charles V of Spain in the 1500s - earliest written reference? 3) 1800s painting of woman in harem performing rings 4) Chinese Jugglers in England refuted as origin 5) Two tricks - rings that link and unlink, and a set of links that form a chain 6) Use of large ring in chinese martial arts 7) Hungarian origin 8) 'Wheels of wind and fire' ring-like weapons, Mongolia 13th century 9) Animal acrobatic hoop 10) Bosch painting ring reference (single ring) 11) Harness ring or bangle 12) Marco Polo, 13th Century, described trick in his book? 13) Davenport lecture at Abbots referencing history; cited Chinese origin 14) Egyptian origin (Silk road) 15) Roman slave escape anecdote (?) 16) Thomas Frost, "Lives of the Conjurors" (1875) Modern Version of trick described 17) Spanish inquisition (nobody expected that...) 18) Blacksmith chain manufacture I looked in the Marco Polo book and couldn't find the bit of text referenced; if anyone has an exact search term, that would be helpful. It's on the Project Gutenberg site. On the 'two tricks' point (made by Jonathan Townsend) a good illustration would be the difference in effect between the linking rings as traditionally performed (several large rings link and unlink, possibly forming a chain) and the Mikame Mystery Chain, demonstrated here by the late Yonezo Mikame: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=le35wbEAlBY In which broken sections of chain are made whole again. I suggest "linking rings" and "linking chain" to differentiate the two. The Damatus trick sounds like the linking chain. |
Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
I don't know how easy it is to separate the various permutations of the linking rings. For example, the linking chain with large round links is basically a "cousin" to the classic "Linking Rings." OTOH, so is the linking finger ring -- albeit a different approach.
It's like trying to separate the cups and balls from the three shell game. When I had my first set of acetabula made up, I noticed how easy it was to do shell game moves with them. When you start tracing tricks that are thousands of years old, then you begin to find overlaps.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Add me to the list of folks who've looked at linking chain links (one with a gap among a few others in the pile for the demonstration) as the primary and the round and larger ones as the "tamed" version. That may be why the version where they all link at once seems to resonate so (dropped singly into a glass, they are poured out linked) Similar to the thinking behind the pea/walnut scaled up to the cups and then "tamed" with final loads of extra balls then larger objects. Just my version of a Lagrangian through the variations of the tricks. Three card monte->three card trick with four cards + chase the ace + that version of the trick with the giant gaffed cards. All technical trades of cunning for tamed deception. My reasoning is that human nature has not changed since there were first games of chance and people with reason to apply cunning to better their circumstances.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
I used to perform "Chained Lightning, Jr." as a path trick at the renaissance festival. It really wasn't a bad trick at all. There is something very magical about a dozen separate links of chain apparently linking right in front of the spectator's eyes.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9982 Posts |
Though the earliest known depiction of Borromean Rings is 2nd century, myths and legends of many cultures have the symbol linked with magic -- Three Rings bound yet not linked. Thus one could presume that the concept of rings being linked and unlinked is far more ancient, and if used for "legitimate" purpose would have been emulated by magicians. The Three Linked Rings is a universal symbol offered as a mystery, puzzle and magic(k) and even adopted by CHristianity in the 3rd century. I recall some reference to its being connected with early alchemy.
Thus, for me, written or pictorial validation is not required for me to know that linked rings were connected with magic several millenia ealier than "proved."
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
volto Special user 603 Posts |
Wow. Such a fantastic reference and so many things I had no idea were related:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borromean_rings Braids, the monkey fist knot, the three-knives trick and the Borromean rings. So much amazing history and mathematical depth... wow. Thanks for posting that...! |
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