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seadog93 Inner circle 3200 Posts |
Quote:
On 2010-11-06 15:54, Dannydoyle wrote: Great points. I think the martial arts can give a person the confidence not to be sucked into a fight and at the same time give them the skills to defend themselves if it is the last resort (I posted on another thread my understanding of the difference between a fight and self defense). Quote:
So lots of sides to the equasion. absolutely, another good point.
"Love is the magician who pulls man out of his own hat" - Ben Hecht
"Love says 'I am everything.' Wisdom says 'I am nothing'. Between the two, my life flows." -Nisargadatta Maharaj Seadog=C-Dawg=C.ou.rtn.ey Kol.b |
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Magnus Eisengrim Inner circle Sulla placed heads on 1053 Posts |
1. I agree with Andrewzuber.
2. I don't trust childhood memories and neither should you. John
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned; The best lack all conviction, while the worst Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats |
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MagicSanta Inner circle Northern Nevada 5841 Posts |
My baby brother, now 41, has a very tight circle of friends that he's had since he was in kindergarten. They are the guys who hung out with him when he had serious speech problems and he was extremely difficult to understand, sounding close to how a lot of deaf do when they speak. He was savaged growing up being called a retard and mumbles etc.. While I was in the Navy and I guess he was 10 or 11 my parents took him to Stanford and while I have no clue what they did in a year he was speaking clearly and there is, today, no indication of any speech problem. Hats off to Stanford University. The point is Pat, my brother, got the size in the family, the only one over six foot, his circle of friends were all tough (half now in prison), and he got all of the 'mean'. So tormented + mean + size + toughness = The wrong guy to be around if you want to make fun of the handicapped. My brother to this day will go after any bully he sees making fun of someone weaker or if they have a handicap. He hears someone called 'retard' and he is in their face. So there are people out there who realllly don't like bullies. If you need someone slapped around my brother is now in Iowa, and not too happy about it.
My thing is I always respected intelligence and also from my brother never assumed that if one cannot communicate never assume they cannot understand everything you say and what is going on. I guess that is why I was cool with Tommy (my genius friend in hiding) and others who normally were bullied. Just don't let it destroy you kids out there. (Happy Hank, my friend and neighbor, I know where you are coming from) |
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Andrew Zuber Inner circle Los Angeles, CA 3014 Posts |
I agree about childhood memories, Magnus. And the fact is that we live in a different world now. You teach your kid to punch and kick a bully today, and tomorrow that bully could come back to school with a gun and an agenda. I don't care how well you "fight," your fists don't win when they're faced with a gun. A lot of these kids are bullies at school because they're bullied at home, and a lot of parents that bully their children are likely to have guns in the house. Is it really that big of a leap to think that a bully who gets beat up at school will want to retaliate?
Seriously people, pick up a newspaper. All of your stories of beating up the bad guys and becoming friends may have been relevant then, but it's a whole new ball game now. Not to be harsh, but we didn't worry about school shootings when I was in school, and I'm only 29. I know a lot of the people in here that became friends with their bullies are older than I am. Your childhood, my childhood, and the childhood that exists today are different things. And by the way, don't be shocked when your kid gets suspended or expelled from school for retaliating against a bully. I hope you're prepared to home school those kids, because in this day and age, the rules have changed. Those that don't play by them can face life altering consequences.
"I'm sorry - if you were right, I would agree with you." -Robin Williams, Awakenings
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MagicSanta Inner circle Northern Nevada 5841 Posts |
You know what? I'd accept a suspension of it puts an end to a bullies run. Seems to me young people are divided into two camps, the gangsters and the wussies and the wussies are letting the gangsters run them into the ground. Note I said 'letting them'. Perhaps I'm wrong, let the lil' victims hang themselves for being tormented, at least they won't grow up to breed right?
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gdw Inner circle 4884 Posts |
I think there is a bit of confession here. I agree with Andrew, on that aggressing against others is wrong, that is, INITIATING force is wrong.
This includes retaliation, especially escalated retaliation. There is a defence between this and defence. I think most, or at the very least I am not advocating just hitting someone for picking on you. But there is a difference between that and defending against a physical assault, and initiating a physical assault. I don't think anyone is suggesting lying there and taking physical punches.
"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."
I won't forget you Robert. |
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MagicSanta Inner circle Northern Nevada 5841 Posts |
I don't know Glen.... I think some might.
Of course I mean in self defense you retaliate. The best way is not let them get to you in the first place. You'd be surprise if someone starts to punk you and you just laugh at them or say "you got to be kidding me" then walk off. Remember, they want the reaction. |
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Micheal Leath Inner circle 1048 Posts |
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On 2010-11-06 20:01, Andrewzuber wrote: I don't know about over there, but here they would also get arrested. |
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gdw Inner circle 4884 Posts |
Quote:
On 2010-11-06 20:40, MagicSanta wrote: That is, again, quite different than turning around and slugging them. As for self defense, you should not be retaliating. You should be doing only what is necessary to stop an attack. One can defend oneself without ever throwing a punch or kick.
"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."
I won't forget you Robert. |
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MagicSanta Inner circle Northern Nevada 5841 Posts |
In my case the bully was physically coming after me, an eye glass wearing guy who was known for academics. That is why I responded. He didn't get hurt physically, his ego sure did.
Of course one can defend themselves w/out physically pounding the guy. I have done that, in fact you might as well get a gun and shoot me rather than expect to win a war of wits. Again, for the slower types, don't just let 'em get away with it and getting arrested is often acceptable too if it means you end your being attacked. No court is going to say "Gee, that guy went after you and you defended yourself, you are guilty!", they will give you a hug and put the kids parents into rehab. |
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Andrew Zuber Inner circle Los Angeles, CA 3014 Posts |
Michael - I would assume they'd be arrested here as well (I'm actually from the states, just studying for my master's degree here...not too many school yard fights in grad school. Yet )
I'm certainly not saying to lie there and just take it if you are being physically attacked. I too would be defending myself in order to get away from the situation. But being beat up on Monday, and going back to school to beat up the bully on Tuesday, is what I'm against. All that does is add to the mess.
"I'm sorry - if you were right, I would agree with you." -Robin Williams, Awakenings
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Micheal Leath Inner circle 1048 Posts |
Quote:
On 2010-11-06 21:12, MagicSanta wrote: They will lock both parties up when the schools have a zero tolerance policy on fighting. They will lock you up even if it is in self defense. I saw it happen when I was in high school. |
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MagicSanta Inner circle Northern Nevada 5841 Posts |
Then I guess it is worth getting locked up now isn't it?
Of course you can allow yourself or your childred to be bullied, up to you. |
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Micheal Leath Inner circle 1048 Posts |
Quote:
On 2010-11-06 22:00, MagicSanta wrote: I agree something should be done. If they chose to fight back, they should know that they are risking being arrested or possibly shot. |
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Chrystal Inner circle Canada/France 1552 Posts |
I hate to say it without singling people out- but the majority of you are basing your knowledge or experience with bullying based on your own experiences. I'm afraid times have changed. what you think you know about bullying is no longer as easy as walking away or fighting the bully.
It's no longer knocking the bully out and gaining respect. Times have changed and many youths no longer just use fist but have weapons to intimidate their targets. They also "swarm" their victim - many take part. Cyber bullying is especially dangerous as ASK ANY TEEN IN HIGH SCHOOL and texting, facebook, ect is used on a daily basis. This is life in their world - new age technology which was not available when many of you were growing up. Now - the victim not only has to deal with the bully but everyone in school knows about it and many avoid the victim not wanting to be targets themselves. Fights are posted on Facebook or announcements so that many youths show up. The victim can choose not to look at these things but trust me, they and everyone in their school know what is being said about them and not just a small group that is targeting the victim. This causes alienation for the victim , loss of self esteem and over time the victim feels a sense of helplessness and self loathing - they are unable to fight back. Their souls are destroyed. Eventually they turn that self hatred inward by committing suicide or outward by arming themselves which is how many school shooting occur. Bullies target those that they see as different - many victims have other problems previous to being targeted - they are already vulnerable. The bullying compounds their precarious well being. These victims may also be victims at home of abuse, in which they have already been beaten to feel they have no voice. They are youth whom already have suffered defeat in terms of scholastic achievements, poverty or inner turmoil if they are realizing they are gay. Bullying make the victims life intolerable as not just the bullying incidents are creating chaos for the victim but their it is the bullies that need to be singled out and dealt with and the victims supported. As an Childcare worker who supports and works daily with high risk youth...I am adamant about the 0 tolerance as stated by our school district. Telling a kid to ignore it or get over it is wrong. Fighting the bully is not effective in this day and age, as again because of schools 0 tolerance against violence - fighting may result in criminal charges for both parties. It's not an option like it was back in the good old days. It does not make the victim strong or a man as was seen in the "good ole days" - it may mean taunts with weapons, crowds (due to the techno age) and every facet of the victims life. In cyber space anything can be said and the victim is helpless to stop it...and it escalates that friends of friends may not know the victim personally, but know about them. There seems to be no escape. School districts are also implementing - not only the 0% tolerance against bullying and violence, but staff and students are vocal about words that hurt and target specific groups. It's not okay and not acceptable. Many are hate crimes. Obviously, I feel very strongly about this issue as the many of the kids I work with have been bullied. Their stories are powerful. While I can't go into specifics-I am sure that many of you have not even experienced the horrific lives that some of these kids have experienced. I am proud to say I love and support them...this is not coddling! It is giving them strength and acceptance. Chrystal |
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MagicSanta Inner circle Northern Nevada 5841 Posts |
Well, seems the zero tollerance and school support etc is doing great since kids are killing themselves.
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Micheal Leath Inner circle 1048 Posts |
Schools have replaced common sense with zero tolerance.
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MagicSanta Inner circle Northern Nevada 5841 Posts |
Yup....
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seadog93 Inner circle 3200 Posts |
Chrystal,
absolutely wonderful post, thank you Quote:
On 2010-11-06 21:12, MagicSanta wrote: Well, they won't necessarily convict you, but laws are absolutely crazy, there are all sorts of rules that do not in any way take into account the physiology and psychology of who is attacked and is in serious danger and it may well come down to wether the jury likes you. (BTW, everyone knows about jury nullification right?) Wether or not it's worth it is another issue.
"Love is the magician who pulls man out of his own hat" - Ben Hecht
"Love says 'I am everything.' Wisdom says 'I am nothing'. Between the two, my life flows." -Nisargadatta Maharaj Seadog=C-Dawg=C.ou.rtn.ey Kol.b |
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MagicSanta Inner circle Northern Nevada 5841 Posts |
I think many are missing the non physical aspect of not feeding into the situation in the first place. If you remove the award they will move on to find someone who will react the way they want. For a bully it is the destination not the journey.
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