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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » You are getting sleepy...very sleepy... » » Public Liability Insurance for UK Performers (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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quicknotist
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I've already heard positive noises from a few UK performers about the info in this free report from Jonathan Royle, which seems to be about giving them an alternative route to getting notoriously hard to get or expensive PL insurance.
You don't even have to give your email address to download this.

Of course, the true test of how good this information is will be when those performers use it.

You can download the 25 page Report here:
http://www.4shared.com/document/6zbpzHcq......HYP.html

Or short version is: http://tinyurl.com/3adjnd4

As a trainer of hypnotists, I'm interested to hear what people think. Especially those of you in the UK.

Reg
rodneypattison
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Cant download the document as the website diverts to Thai as I am in Thailand and there is no place to change the language. Regards Rodney
Anansi
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I got it ( I'm in Malaysia).

PM me your email and I'll send it to you.
ars est celare artem
Owen Mc Ginty
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This is the greatest load of codswallop I´ve read in a long time, and I got tired of reading the sh*t after the first paragraph on page 5 when he states "no genuine Hypnosis or Trance is ever used in our work".

For a man who harped on for years about safety and insurance from an ethical pedestal it would seem he´s now content to "bend the truth".

I suggest that if you´re going to read this, read it on screen first, and if you print it out, print it on toilet paper so it serves a purpose.
If you never fail, you're not trying hard enough.
Anansi
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I follow John Evelyn's line:

'Omnia explorate; meliora retinete'

(Explore everything; keep the best)

;)
ars est celare artem
TonyB2009
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Quote:
On 2010-11-19 02:48, Owen Mc Ginty wrote:
This is the greatest load of codswallop I´ve read in a long time, and I got tired of reading the sh*t after the first paragraph on page 5 when he states "no genuine Hypnosis or Trance is ever used in our work".

For a man who harped on for years about safety and insurance from an ethical pedestal it would seem he´s now content to "bend the truth".

In twelve years of doing shows I have never seen anything to convince me that a trance state exists or has anything to do with stage hypnosis. And I am in good company. Several prominent hypnotists, including Kreskin, feel the same way.

I don't want to open the usual can of worms, but you have to be open to the fact that we don't all view this the same way. And because you disagree with him doesn't make his views any less valid.
mindpunisher
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The big question is what view would a court of law take or the insurance company itself should a major claim occur? Its untested and no one can say what would happen for sure,

A trance is really only the suggestive state of mind induced on stage.And hypnosis is the process of selecting the suggestable ones and condotioning them.

Everything else is just semantics.

I am curious though Tony - what WOULD have to happen to convince you hypnosis existed?

I know Alex DOES believe it does exist.
kissdadookie
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I personally don't feel that there's really any kind of state for hypnosis. People either accept your suggestions or they don't. Heck, if you think about it, you do not even need to induct a person for them to take a suggestion and run with it. You're really just pointing out something that occurs naturally in the first place. Point at a spot on a persons face while you're standing in a line/queue and go "hey, what's that? hmmmm, nah, forget it" and that person will most likely be hyper-aware of the fictitious spot on their face all evening. What's the difference between that and questioning a subject in regards to them being able to stand up from their seat or not ("do you think you can stand up from that seat? kind of weird isn't it? try to get up from that seat" and then the person ends up sticking to the seat if the doubt you've instilled is strong enough). Since there's very little difference or actually none at all, I don't see how in a court of law trance or a state of hypnosis could be proven.
TonyB2009
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Mindpunisher, I am open to the possibility that a state of hypnosis probably exists in a clinical setting. But I don't believe it exists on stage. I certainly have never tried to achieve it. I strive for compliance.

I don't know how the courts would view the matter. I hope never to find out.
mindpunisher
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Well we agree 100% on the last point!

The thing about compliance is that it is not a normal state. In other words those volunteers wouldn't normally comply. And they have to be taken through a process and conditioned. So there is a state of some kind involved. Plus the majority of my volunteers have no memory of being on stage.
Owen Mc Ginty
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Tony;
you are "bang on" so to speak. I agree that this is all subjective and that the mans opinions are valid. It just seems to be something of a massive moral u-turn for the "hypnotist" in question. Any videos I´ve seen of his posted online tend to seem like "rants" which I find become extremely boring after a short while.

Anansi - I applaud your persistence, the document reads like an "infomercial" to me. No doubt any "FREE" debate posted here "YES HERE" regarding its content "FOR A LIMITED TIME ONLY!" will be more interesting than the actual article. Smile
If you never fail, you're not trying hard enough.
Shrubsole
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Oh a thread about "Jonathan Royle" and "Insurance"

Gets large carton of popcorn and sits down for the entertainment to begin.
Winner of the Dumbringer Award for total incompetence. (All years)
Paul R
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I'm interested to find MP that you think compliance is not a natural state. I tend to find people are very compliant. "Please stand here, forward a bit, feet together, put your hand out like a table, great, look at me, super."
This is not just in relation to Hypnosis, but many things. I think perhaps your "position" is important, or their perception of you, the "White lab coat" study for example, but even in casual performance situations I find people will comply.
I do appreciate though that you may be talking about a deeper level of compliance than I am referring to here.
kissdadookie
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Paul, what you've noted is indeed compliance and it is a natural state. The only difference between day to day displays of compliance and compliance in terms of hypnosis is that in hypnosis, the hypnotist is trained to capitalize on compliance.

I do not believe that it's a state that the subject is in as that really has nothing to do with it, what does have a lot to do with it is the hypnotist understanding how to use it to their advantage. Think about how leading and pacing works, a lot of what you're doing is nothing more than what a director would do with their actors or how a doctor easily understand symptoms as well as cause and effect.

This all comes back to what you've pointed out, the people's perception of the performer. The performer's job is to give the perception that he/she is in control and is the expert on the subject thus whatever the performer says or does is for good reason and that there is no doubt that what the performer says is factual. This is similar to how a magician asks a person to do such and such odd action which the audience then associates to having an impact on how a trick works or if a doctor asks you to make such and such motions or stand/sit/lay in such and such position.

All in all, if there is indeed states of hypnosis I would like to see someone point them out and they must be unique states which are not achievable naturally in day to day life.
mindpunisher
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It's not everyday that someone will react and act better than an oscar nomimnee when responsing to suggestion. Or with the speed and its not everyday when someone complies with certain suggestions. And it is not everyday for someone to have complete amnesia for being on stage for more than two hours.

If you think that's everyday then you must live a wild wild life!

Every state is unique as is every trance no two are the same.

Yo cannot be alive and not be in a state if some kind. Sadness, frustration joy laughter, indifference, boredom are ALL states. As is disbelief. Yoi might not believe states exist but - that is also a state of mind.

Good hypnotists capatilize on - ongoing states of minds. Another defnition for state is trance.
kissdadookie
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Quote:
On 2010-11-23 13:40, mindpunisher wrote:
Good hypnotists capatilize on - ongoing states of minds. Another defnition for state is trance.


My point exactly. A good hypnotist is really just capitalizing on what is already there. Directing focus and attention the same way as a professor giving a really good lecture. There is different states of mind but it's not something unique to hypnosis. Thus staying with the topic at hand, it would be incredibly difficult or impossible to prove that "true" hypnosis had ever occurred or that the person was placed into some sort of special "trance state."
mindpunisher
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It would be equally as difficult to prove that it didn't happen...

But I'm not here to prove anything. Im still trying to figure out what it is YOU are trying to prove?

Not seen many good lectures by professors and I have TWO University degrees. They were all poor communicators. And I would also say you are wrong. A good hypnotist messes with the PROCESS to access states not normally available or at least amplified from normally daily events - while the majority focus on the CONTENT and have no idea about the proces or structure of information.

If stage was everyday ordinary occurence no one would ever pay to see a stage hypnotist.

If you need me to prove that then I really have nothing more to say.
kissdadookie
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What point do you not get? The whole point I made was that it's as provable as it is unprovable. In other words, if one does get sued for not having liability insurance, the judgment is most likely not going to be due to the act of hypnotizing a subject but rather negligence in regards to things like shoddy chairs on stage, leaving hazards on stage for a subject to trip over and hurt themselves, etc.

My other point of course is that different states in hypnosis really doesn't exist. Now, if having such a belief helps the hypnotist be better at what he/she does, then by all means, keep on believing!
mindpunisher
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You have no way of knowing what will happen in court. Or even if you will have to prove hypnosis exists or not.

You don't believe in any states so why would you believe in hypnosis? Of course everyone just acts out to make the hypnotist money.

Its not so much believes but uses. If you want to go down that route most things don't exist we just believe they exist. after all matter is just energy or so I believe.
kissdadookie
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There's several different understandings of what hypnosis is and how it works, what makes your understanding true while all other false? So basically, as how you're usual posts on the matter ends up being, you're right and everybody who disagrees is basically wrong? Of course I don't know if in a court of law judgment will be on the act of hypnosis itself but let's be honest here, thus far, no such thing has ever been established in any of the cases dealing with hypnosis liability claims. Statistically speaking, this supports my points rather than supporting yours.

Along similar lines, did I ever question that most things don't exist the way we understand them currently? I never really questioned that idea, that's what I feel science is for. Science answers questions while also allowing for deviations, errors, and change to new understandings as those understandings are discovered.
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