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entity
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Offering intuitive or psychic advice as an example to people of how to make rational decisions seems a stretch.

- entity

Posted: Nov 15, 2010 10:13am
On 2010-11-15 00:47, gabelson wrote:

Entity, I really don't believe that a strong 3-envelope test, a great drawing dupe. and even a killer Q&A is going to change a person's belief system after a night at the theater.
...However, as you said, we can agree to disagree. Whatever works for you.

Jumping to extreme conclusions doesn't address the issue. I have never suggested (in fact I've argued the opposite) that an audience member's entire "belief system" (whatever that is) might be changed by witnessing a strong display of mentalism.

But I know that a strong performance of mentalism can create a NEW, added belief in an audience member's mind. Some will try to deny that or ignore it. Others will attempt to capitalize on that. I just choose to acknowledge it and deal with it in a way that suits me, without hampering the mystery of the performance.

Yes, happy to agree to disagree. Different strokes...

- entity
funsway
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Quote:
On 2010-11-15 09:47, entity wrote:
Offering intuitive or psychic advice as an example to people of how to make rational decisions seems a stretch.

- entity


I heartly agree! which is why I never did such things. Why do you read things into statements that are not there instead of dealing with the ideas presented?

They key to helping anyone with a serious life problem is discovering the core perceptions that have guided past decisions that have not aeemed to work. A more predictable future is grounded in a change of perceptions - "If you always do what you alwasy did, you will always get what you always got."

A magic effect can cause a person to appraisal their perceptiosn of what is considerd impossible by them. It can instill hope in appraoching the problem and confidence to do the work necessary. Once the faulty perceptions is repleased by a more funtional one a structure plan can be put in place to reach the desired goal -- as a process requiring making congruent decisions.

There is nothing psychic or intuitive about it. Organizing, planning, implementation and apprasial for a continuous loop of learning and modification of perceptions and goals -- all based on making decisions with confidence.

The relevance to this thread is that when people rely on paranormal stuff like "fate, luck, fortunetelling instead of scientic solutions like those mentioned, they make poor or inconsistent decisions. Magic or mentalism effect can open their eyes to the difference -- just one of the tools to get them talking about their real problems instead of the dilusions wallowed in every day.

it is a "test" that disproves the false perceptions.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst



ShareBooks at www.eversway.com * questions at funsway@eversway.com
entity
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Quote:
On 2010-11-16 07:06, funsway wrote:

The relevance to this thread is that when people rely on paranormal stuff like "fate, luck, fortunetelling instead of scientic solutions like those mentioned, they make poor or inconsistent decisions.


First sensible thing you've said.

But... are you saying that you would show someone a magic/mentalism effect in order to convince them that you can do genuinely impossible things, so that they will have confidence in you as a consultant/advisor?

- entity
funsway
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No, it is just a tool to get them to open up and deal with real issues, along with stories,allegory,echoing,focusing questions -- and mostly listening. My job was never to "convince" people into doing anything -- just assist them in cominig up with a solution they could "own" since it was "there idea"

You never talk people into sales, you listen them into a sale -- and for me the sale of some service was always secondary to helping them. But, since I could represent 50+ companies at once I usually could offer some assistance if needed -- or I could just walk away if the owner refused to get serious. In most case the solution was something the pwner could do themselves, but many opted for assitance of a professional.

for me, using a magic trick is no different from telling a fictional story about another business with a similar problem. Both create an illusion that can be used to establish a dialectic from which the owner can selelct new options. With a computer spreadsheet you can play "what if" games. This is no different.

magic isn't about fooling people, it is about changing perceptions -- just like any other form of persuasion.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst



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Keith Raygor
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On 2010-11-14 10:20, Tom Cutts wrote:
Quote:
. . . has shunned and ridiculed ideas which later in history would be found to become scientific "truth". Round Earths, Sun centric solar systems, and things of similar ilk. . . .

Science has quietly and somewhat recently added a taste to our human abilities and removed a planet from our solar system.


The power of words, especially in regards to this discussion:
'Shun, ridicule and ilk' paint your picture, but I haven't seen examples of those characterizations of science's earlier beliefs. I'm certain there are those that did shun and ridicule, but in general, science has moved forward in an effort to continually increase knowledge, with the frame of mind that not all is known at this point.

Whether it be entity's allegory of reindeer, or your summary of your position on science's evolution and willingness (or lack) to embrace change, note that science did not remove a planet from our solar system. Two important matters took place which is in keeping with science and discovery at large.
1) The International Astronomical Union (IAU), an organization of professional astronomers, passed Resolution 5A, which defines the word "planet." Previously, the field of astronomy had never clearly defined what is and is not a planet. This could easily be considered movement forward.
2) Resolution 6A addressed Pluto specifically, and used accumulated knowledge to clarify Pluto's type of orbit. Pluto has also been recently discovered to have distinctive terrain that was not in keeping with planets.

It is important to note that not all astronomers agree with these two new distinctions, just like life and this thread. But enough scientists did, so that the clarifications were passed by a majority.

As science received more and better data, science did not quietly (it was all over the news) remove a planet (except from a list kids learn in elementary school).
Science corrected itself through definition, clarity and discovery, as it has done since its beginnings.
The lack of similar data in psi research works against the possibility that there could be the same type or rate of growth.

My opinion is that Randi's efforts were sometimes lacking in strict scientific protocol, but his is the most visible of the research being done.

To answer Ian's original question, I'm not so sure that people in general, or even those on this board are down on psychic phenomena. I think many on this board have been characterized as being down on it simply because they still question an area that suffers from lack of real research and data. I suspect that many here would be some of the first to be especially delighted should more convincing evidence come forth. It is an exciting possibility, and we dream of it in our performances.

Those that are down on those that "appear" to be down on psychics simply haven't agreed on definitions yet, or learned how to disagree in moderation.
But getting everyone to agree - would suck.

Ian, thanks for a great opening post. The articles were good reading.
entity
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Quote:
On 2010-11-16 11:38, Keith Raygor wrote:

Whether it be entity's allegory of reindeer, or your summary of your position on science's evolution and willingness (or lack) to embrace change, note that science did not remove a planet from our solar system. Two important matters took place which is in keeping with science and discovery at large.


Keith: Not quite clear on what you're saying with regard to my allegory of reindeer.

- entity

Quote:
On 2010-11-16 11:23, funsway wrote:
magic isn't about fooling people, it is about changing perceptions -- just like any other form of persuasion.


First, I'd suggest that if anything, as mentalists and magicians we direct or lead people to specific perceptions, rather than changing them.

Magic isn't "about" any one thing. Each of us chooses our own meaning for what we do. For some it IS just about fooling people. Sometimes it's just fun entertainment. For others it is a vehicle to convey a point of view. For many it's therapy (for themselves, not for the audience).

You don't give enough specifics about how you would use mentalism or magic to "change perceptions" to warrant further comment.

- entity
Keith Raygor
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I was trying to say that though others painted your story as an 'extreme' example, it was meant to illustrate a point that is not extreme. Your point was well-made and illustrated.

Tom's use of planets (NOT an allegory, but the actual 'facts' which I clarified) illustrate his point that science could be wrong, but also makes the case that science was doing what science was SUPPOSED to be doing - learning, growing, changing along with new knowledge.

Sorry I wasn't clear.
If you have any further questions, please ask.
funsway
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Quote:
You don't give enough specifics about how you would use mentalism or magic to "change perceptions" to warrant further comment.
- entity


OK - buy one of my books
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst



ShareBooks at www.eversway.com * questions at funsway@eversway.com
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