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dmueller
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With the search function being offline, please forgive me if this is something that has been covered.

Let me start off by saying I am not seeking training in hypnotism. I am working on a research paper, the subject of which is comparison/contrast of hypnotic states and meditative states. The paper is for a class I am taking for my own personal edification, not for any professional reasons.

Here is where I need your help. I am looking for texts to use as sources for the hypnosis parts of the paper. It is not going to be an instructional paper in any way, but more of an exploration of the concepts and theory behind hypnosis and how they may or may not correlate to meditation. I am not really interested in "instructional" materials such as books on induction methods. I am most interested in what I would consider "foundational" material, or any scientific studies that have been done.

And here is the tricky bit. I would prefer to not go broke in the process of writing this paper. I am looking for books that I can either get from the library or that are readable online.

Any help would be greatly appreciated, and thank you in advance for even taking the time to read this

Dave
Anthony Jacquin
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Hi,

for a very comprehensive look at the science you could try

Handbook of Clinical Hypnosis ed Lynn, Rhue and Kirsch
The Oxford Handbook of Hypnosis ed Nash
Hypnosis - a congitive behavioural perspective.

Your entire study may be flawed from the start with the assumption that there is a 'state' or special process. However the statist position is outlined clearly in these works amongst others.

All the best

Anthony
Anthony Jacquin

Reality is Plastic! The Art of Impromptu Hypnosis
Updated for 2016

Now on Kindle and Audible!
dmueller
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Anthony,

Thank you for your response. Let me clarify what I mean by meditative state and hypnotic state. I am not speaking of a physiological change per se. But I don't think that anybody can really disagree with the fact that there is SOME sort of shift in behavior and cognition.
mindpunisher
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Anger, sadness, fear, laughter are all states. Just as a hypnotic state IS a state. All states have physiological chemical changes period. We move from one state to another all day at a millisecond.

One of the problems with hypnosis is - it isn't quite a state. Since a state change is immediate however hypnosis needs to be conditioned. Its not quite a condition either since it can be terminated immediately. Which has been one of the most puzzling things about it. Its neither a state or a condition and at the same time its both!
Anthony Jacquin
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Quote:
On 2010-11-16 14:50, dmueller wrote:
Anthony,

Thank you for your response. Let me clarify what I mean by meditative state and hypnotic state. I am not speaking of a physiological change per se. But I don't think that anybody can really disagree with the fact that there is SOME sort of shift in behavior and cognition.


Thanks for clarifying. I would suggest there is a change in personal perception of behaviour and cognition. There is nothing special about the behaviour, cognition and certainly nothing special about the state.

A book you may already have on your list that I think will also be of interest is Dangerous Emotions by Daniel Goleman. he and his team (including Paul Ekman and The Dalai Lama) do a great job of illustrating links between what we know of neurology and meditation. Some of this may be of use to you.

Anthony
Anthony Jacquin

Reality is Plastic! The Art of Impromptu Hypnosis
Updated for 2016

Now on Kindle and Audible!
Zerububle
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Be careful not to take Mindpunishers word as gospel. There are state theorists and non state theorists. Both have extremely well educated and practiced people in them and we would be foolish to dismiss either out of hand. Most critical thinking people would look at both theories and utilise both. Be careful not to instill rules where none are needed.

:)
bobser
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I agree. Also, cognition is simply what it is, however behaviour and state can seem to change or not change dependent on the individual subject.

When learning cold reading there is a rule that says: 'although we are all different it is important to remember that we are all the same'.
In hypnosis there is also a rule, but this one says that: 'although we are all the same it is important to remember that we are all different'.
Admittedly the latter is my own rule. Smile

Bob
Bob Burns is the creator of The Swan.
mindpunisher
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Oh no don't take my word as gospel or you could find yourself in a hell of a state.

I state facts not theories. Anger sadness etc etc etc are states and they change all the time f rom moment to moment from thought to thought.

Hypnosis is just another state although it has additional peculiar qualities that make it more intriguing. The fact it also behave like a conditioned response normally these are two different things.

Physiological chemical changes take place constantly from thought to thought whether in hypnosis or not.

Basically when you are tense or stressed you fire off the sympathetic nervous system which dose a whole range of things including triggering the fight or flight..

When you are deeply relaxed you set off the parasympathetic nervous system which does the opposite stimulates natural healing processes

Behaviour also includes the mental and emotional processes your run through your mind and body which determines state - state can also determine your mental and emotional processes which is why anchoring is so useful.

I don't get the ig deal about hypnosis being a special state or not its just another state which happens to be useful.
mindpunisher
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Quote:
On 2010-11-17 04:57, Zerububle wrote:
Be careful not to take Mindpunishers word as gospel. There are state theorists and non state theorists. Both have extremely well educated and practiced people in them and we would be foolish to dismiss either out of hand. Most critical thinking people would look at both theories and utilise both. Be careful not to instill rules where none are needed.

:)


The thing is you will find 99% of those educated theorists are limited in applying these theories and aren't skilled at applying them. A bit like a lot of the expert theorists on here.
dmueller
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A big thanks to Anthony for at least trying to help.

I am starting to wonder if maybe they shouldn't change the motto from "Magicians helping Magicians", to "Magicians bickering with Magicians".
mindpunisher
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You really think a magicians forum is a place to find research? Seriously there are literally hundreds of books on both subjects. you need to come to your own conclusions. The search function still works on google and its a much better engine than the Café's. I am sure you can find theories on both if you seach google for online stuff.

But here is the thing - research without actually trying or experiencing both in my point of view is worthless. Which is why in my view many heavy academic theories are a waste of time. Its a bit like reading about how to drive a car. You sort of understand it but in reality you don't.

However going back to your original post

>>>>>>Thank you for your response. Let me clarify what I mean by meditative state and hypnotic state. I am not speaking of a physiological change per se. But I don't think that anybody can really disagree with the fact that there is SOME sort of shift in behavior and cognition. <<<<<<<,

There is some shift in behaviour and cognition every minute of the day. If you don't find that helpful then I give up. There are also physiological changes in just about everythought that leads to a change in mood ( no matter how sleight) which is almost all thoughts.


You will find everything you need and more using google. But if you were to actually learn about it the chances are you would conclude that hypnosis and meditation are almost the same with hypnosis being emphasised more on an outcome and meditation more on a "state".
bobser
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Quote:
On 2010-11-17 17:32, mindpunisher wrote:
hypnosis and meditation are almost the same with hypnosis being emphasised more on an outcome and meditation more on a "state".


I think this is a fair point.The reason why many of us, who had studied transcendental meditation in the eighties (AND the 50's, 60's and 70's for some) ended up walking away from it, was simply because: it didn't go anywhere.
AS MP says; like standard meditation,it was a state but not something you could do anything with. The move after that was Alpha work and now Theta work is the new Zeitgeist.Five will surely get you ten that within the next twenty years Delta will come into play and don't be too surprise3d if it has a hypnotic link.
I know this has nothing to do with the initial question but it is a far more interesting area.
Bob Burns is the creator of The Swan.
dmueller
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While I agree that it is very interesting, unfortunately it is a tangent I don't really have room to cover in my paper. Space is limited.

Quote:
You really think a magicians forum is a place to find research? Seriously there are literally hundreds of books on both subjects. you need to come to your own conclusions. The search function still works on google and its a much better engine than the Café's. I am sure you can find theories on both if you seach google for online stuff.

But here is the thing - research without actually trying or experiencing both in my point of view is worthless. Which is why in my view many heavy academic theories are a waste of time. Its a bit like reading about how to drive a car. You sort of understand it but in reality you don't.


I came to the Café (on this particular subject) because I figured some of the working professionals would be able to point me towards solid texts that I could look into. I figured that might make my life a little easier instead of sorting through the thousands of texts that are floating around. So far 1 person has actually mentioned texts that I could look at for information. Pretty much everything else has been a hijack.

Anthony, thank you again.

If a moderator would happen to get a chance, please close this thread. I have gotten enough information for a decent start at least
bobser
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[quote]On 2010-11-17 23:52, dmueller wrote:

Quote:
I came to the Café (on this particular subject) because I figured some of the working professionals would be able to point me towards solid texts that I could look into. I figured that might make my life a little easier instead of sorting through the thousands of texts that are floating around.


To be honest young 'un, making your life a little easier is not what we're here for. I'd suggest you roll your sleeves up and work a little harder. You'll feel better for it.
And don't go getting hot under the collar. I certainly don't mean that in a bad way and you'll thank me for this advice later.
Bob Burns is the creator of The Swan.
mindpunisher
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Quote:

I came to the Café (on this particular subject) because I figured some of the working professionals would be able to point me towards solid texts that I could look into. I figured that might make my life a little easier instead of sorting through the thousands of texts that are floating around. So far 1 person has actually mentioned texts that I could look at for information. Pretty much everything else has been a hijack.



I told you about google you can get all the information you ever need. I have also given you my perspective from over 20 years experience. Which is a good framework to start from..

I think yor just a bit too ungrateful.
dmueller
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Quote:
To be honest young 'un, making your life a little easier is not what we're here for. I'd suggest you roll your sleeves up and work a little harder. You'll feel better for it.
And don't go getting hot under the collar. I certainly don't mean that in a bad way and you'll thank me for this advice later.


I am not hot under the collar. I started this thread looking for book recommendations, that I could study and use as sources for a research paper, and 1 person has actually listed anything of use. I have no problem doing my own research. But you know as well as I do that there are books with good solid information, and books that are crap. All I was looking for was which books I should look at and which ones to avoid. If I were to post the same question over in the mentalism section, people would point me towards 13steps etc, or looking for cards RRTCM, Erdenase, etc.

Quote:
I told you about google you can get all the information you ever need. I have also given you my perspective from over 20 years experience. Which is a good framework to start from..

I think yor just a bit too ungrateful.


I do appreciate your attempt at giving perspectives from a working experience, but I can't exactly quote an internet forum as a resource and expect the paper to be taken seriously can I? And in regards to google, I know very well how to search, what I don't know is, on this subject, which sources are valid and which ones are not. That is why I started this thread. Not to be told "just google it".... I tried that. I don't have 10 years to write the paper, and if I tried to sift through everything out there, it would take at least that long.
dmkraig
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I understand what you're writing, but here is the challenge:

Hypnosis deals with the mind. The mind is associated with the brain, but the two are not the same. When someone goes into hypnosis, certain brainwave patterns are produced, implying that they are associated. But while in hypnosis a person who has worked with brainwave biofeedback can be asked to change his/her brainwaves and it can be done while they remain hypnotized. So while brainwaves and hypnosis have a relationship, they are not necessarily consistently associated.

The brain is physical. The mind is not.

As a result, the mind is not quantified as easily as the brain. Different people will have different ideas as to what is "foundational." And as long as they all get the desired results, how can we say they're wrong?

Therefore, the challenge, IMO, is that this has started with your inaccurate preconceptions as to the nature of hypnosis. For example, I would suggest that learning to hypnotize is a skill. Skateboarding is a skill, too. What books are "foundational" for skateboarders? Where are the scientific papers on skateboarding?

You're also assuming that our understanding of hypnosis and the mind has not evolved. Most hypnotists today would laugh at some of the ideas put forward in early books on the subject or at least regard them as quaint. Others look at some modern books which are stridently defended by some hypnotists and ignored or mocked by others. So which could you choose to be "foundational" when some hypnotists would denounce the same book that others support?

I would contend that there are two solutions to this challenge. You could go to the library and just get some books about meditation (most of which are written by people who are clueless or based on philosophy rather than practice and true knowledge) and get some books on hypnosis (each presenting the preconceptions and beliefs of the author) and just do a comparison. It will prove nothing but you'll be "edified" and probably get a good grade as teachers tend to look for information rather than knowledge. Alternatively, you could learn hypnosis and meditation and do your own comparison. It wouldn't get you a good grade and it would take a lot longer.

But you would know something.
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