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tiriri
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Interesting point of view...

I like the final conclusion about hypnosis still in the process of being studied by science.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/articl......m&page=2

Giovanni.
mindpunisher
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What is consciousness? Science doesn't know what it is so how can they know what state consciousness hypnosis is?

What is life force? Science has no clue. Nothing new in this article. One thing you can find conflicting research to back up or dismiss just about anything.

Mind is just a concept there is no "proof" it exists.

Its just a point of view. It still doesn't explain anything. What are "suggestable people?" What makes them different? What is happening to them?

Put the word "just" in front of anything and it stops you looking at it and somehow devalues what comes after it.

This argument will still be going round in circles 50 years from now.
kissdadookie
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I think the take away quote from that article is the following:

"...most researchers have concluded that this hypothesis [that hypnosis is a unique state of consciousness] has outlived its usefulness."

Notice the word "hypothesis." This clearly indicates that hypnosis is just a theory rather than a proven phenomenon. To put it in laymen term, it could very well be something that is already currently being studied except it's called something else. The fascination with hypnosis stems from people's perception of the hypnotist. In other words, the hypnotist brings an aesthetic element to the mysteries of the human mind. It is the thought that the hypnotist is manipulating another person's mind and actions that makes it hypnosis. A public speaker could do the same thing but in the role of a public speaker, his actions are not seen to be that of performing hypnosis and instead is looked upon as a person with excellent persuasion skills.
mindpunisher
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What your missing is that the building of expectation is part of the process of hypnosis. People don't "con" themselves the environment is created by the hypnotist. Much like advertisers hypnotise their customers into buying products.

Expectation is mental rehearsal of an outcome. Expectaion increases the emotions which increase suggestability. Its part of the process not separate. Advertisers and certain politicians and leaders have known this for centuries.

People don't "con" themselves they respond to a process.

They may act out suggestions on stage but they do not act as " if" they are hypnotised. The vast majority of people I have spoken to after remember nothing. How does this "research explain that?"

That isn't acting. There are also people who can't resist the process even if they want to. ( a small percentage of any large audience) Also if they are only acting why do stage hypnotists often get called after a show to wake someone in the audience up or unstick their hands or stop them carrying out behaviour suggested on the stage. These people were never part of the show why would they be in that "state" now? Are you suggesting they are all pretending?

Also note the language used by the researcher " increasingly, evidence is suggesting"

This research is nothing more than a "suggestion" a point of view it isn't literal or even the truth its just a suggestion.

That article said nothing that offered anything we didn't already know.

I don't know where these researchers are starting with their expectations of what hypnosis is...but generally speaking what is expected tends to become reality.

Manage someone's expectations and you manage their reality.
kissdadookie
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Let me give you an example. A mentalist often likes to throw in psychological forces into their performances. The basis of psychological forces is that the performer understands certain habits/patterns of how most people think and act. Using this information they are able to anticipate it and use it to their advantage. Is there much a difference to how hypnotist would pace and lead? No, the main difference is that the hypnotist is willing to take it further. Is it some special state of mind? No.

Here's the thing. I'm not arguing that the things that happens to a hypnotized subject does not occur. In fact, I believe that all the responses and follow through of suggestions is 100% real. The issue I have is the definition of hypnosis. The idea that there are states of hypnosis. While stating that their are special states of hypnosis works wonders in a theatrical sense, scientifically speaking, after all these years, it is still seen as something that doesn't really exist.
mindpunisher
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Again it depends on your definition of "states" or "special". I think there are lots of special states of mind we experience naturally. I think the mind is very special just running down a flight of stairs or lifting a coffee mug is an amazing achievement when you consider the bio computations needed for such tasks.

States do exist in fact you wouldn't exist without them. And the slight variants in emotional and mental states can have huge differences in the external behaviour of someone. I mean huge.

I really don't get what the scientific community is trying to prove. I think they are trying to make things fit into their own expectations perhaps they are conning themselves.

Hypnosis IS special to me in that its not so much a particular state but a process that can be harnessed to create special results. If the hypnotist is skilled enough.

But back to the stage just for a second. People DO not act in ways that are over the top for two hours then completely forget all about it afterwards. THEY DON'T ON AN EVERYDAY NORMAL BASIS.

Is this "special"? It depends on what you call special.
kissdadookie
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Quote:
On 2010-11-24 10:18, mindpunisher wrote:
But back to the stage just for a second. People DO not act in ways that are over the top for two hours then completely forget all about it afterwards. THEY DON'T ON AN EVERYDAY NORMAL BASIS.


Totally agreed BUT is it just due to hypnosis? People act differently and GENUINELY in a multitude of different situations. You may find yourself acting a certain way, taking up a certain persona, with one group of people while you act in a completely different manner with another group of people. If the building you are in completely and suddenly blacks out, you're at full alertness and whatever instructions come out from the emergency loud speaker, you will completely follow through due to the context of the situation you are in. Is this due to hypnosis? No, it is natural human behavior. So what does a hypnotist do really? They anticipate and capitalize on natural human behavior then manipulate it. Different states of being is one thing but saying that their are states of hypnosis means that the states are only occurring if a person goes under. Thus the definition of hypnosis as it is currently popularized does not hold up when one goes further into studying human behavior.
mindpunisher
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Again it really depends on what references you are starting with. Hypnosis a process. Stage hypnosis is a process a series of steps that if implemented by a competent hypnotist will get predictable results time and time again.

So using that reference then yes it is because of the process. I don't know of any other context where people behave in ways that lead them to forget two hours of acting out suggestions on stage. Plus I have hypnotised many people I have known for many years and have never seen them take on persona's like they do on stage any context.

Using hypnosis or whatever you want to call it does get predictable results I haven't seen with anything else.

I saw on tv a while back a programme devoted to this argument. The programme investigated whether hypnosis exists or not. I found it really amusing when they got the expert who claims it doesn't exist.

He had a room full of people and he took them through the various steps a hypnotist would take them through. But he framed everybody'd expectations in line with his beliefs that it doesn't exist its only acting.

He then went on and hypnotised them. The displayed all the usual hypnotic phenomena eating onions etc et .

Then as evidence he woke them up and asked them if they had been hypnotised. They said no of course they had acted out. He then asked them if they could remember what had happened and they said no.

With a smug smile on his face he said to the interviewer " see they forget everything because that's what your "supposed" to do when your hypnotised"

I thought it was hilarious. Many researchers have a strong emotional investment in trying to prove something.

Hypnosis is just a word a label used to create a representation of something that's happening. Nothing more it doesn't exist anymore than consciousness or the mind exists. None of these things can be "proved" and are just labels nothing more.
kissdadookie
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Quote:
On 2010-11-24 10:52, mindpunisher wrote:
Hypnosis is just a word a label used to create a representation of something that's happening. Nothing more it doesn't exist anymore than consciousness or the mind exists. None of these things can be "proved" and are just labels nothing more.


Yup, totally agreed. This was indeed my "point" and nothing more Smile
Zoto
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I think that the word 'hypnosis' is really being misused. I think the word hypnosis is really more like the word 'viking'. Viking isn't a big hairy guy with an axe, it's what a big hairy guy with an axe likes to do. That is go a viking.. A verb that is more about motion than a thing.

It is really all about state and hypnosis is the directed moving from state to state. I am not surprised that Irving Kirsch couldn't find common markers. We are all unique individuals that fluctuate daily. Setting markers on an individual would be hard enough let alone the population as a whole. That is why I think we have such general terms.

As hypnotists we weed out the ones that are playful and willing to accept our suggestions now. So we play with them.

I would love to see some studies on states and brain waves.

Jerry
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In stage hypnosis (which is what this forum is about), the hypnosis does not matter. What matters is that an audience paid for a ticket and they better be entertained. Hypnosis is secondary to a hypnosis show.
That is why this forum has a rule about debating the "reality" of hypnosis.

In the end ALL that matters is that people had a good time and were happy with the entertainment selected - in this case, a hypnosis show.
Dr. Richard Nongard, Professional Hypnosis Training
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kissdadookie
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I was never really trying to say that hypnosis was real or not but was just pointing out that the "different states" of hypnosis is a questionable theory. In the end, whichever kind of belief system a hypnotist has which he/she finds aids in allowing them to have successful demonstrations of hypnosis is perfectly fine. Remember, we ALL act out overtly for how we perceive things internally, let that be on a conscious or unconscious level, thus the belief system a hypnotist is invested in definitely has an impact on their success with hypnosis just as the belief system of a subject has an impact on how they respond to hypnosis/suggestions.
mindpunisher
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I don't see it your way. States are unquestionable. Just because you can't measure it on a physical plane doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Love hate fear are all states. And there are many many shades in between.

Science cannot measure everything and the things that they can measure is not the full story.

I think we also have a different idea of successful demonstrations of hypnosis too. A couple of mine would be assisting a pro golfer win a major tournament after not winning anything in over two years, Breaking sales records for Mercedes Benz in less than 14 days. Moving a 250k donation to a £1 million commitment for a childrens charity in one meeting.

These are what I call succesful demonstrations of hypnosis which all involved manipulating the trance states of my clients.

A basic understanding of suggestion and the usual on here would NOT get those results. Its an advanced understanding and use of states that got all of these and many more similar outcomes.
kissdadookie
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MP, like I said, if what you believe in allows you to be very good at hypnotizing folks then keep on believing. Just don't try to force your beliefs onto others. I stated what I stated because to me personally, that's the model I subscribe to. It allows me to do what I need to do with confidence and success. If I were to go on to your model of hypnosis, I personally will not be good at it and would most probably end up not using hypnosis at all anymore because I personally do not believe in the model you believe in.
ringmaster
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Quote:
True, expectation can play a part. Ormond McGill has said that just advertising a a hypnosis performance, causes good subjects to self select and appear.
On 2010-11-24 09:59, mindpunisher wrote:
What your missing is that the building of expectation is part of the process of hypnosis. People don't "con" themselves the environment is created by the hypnotist. Much like advertisers hypnotise their customers into buying products.

Expectation is mental rehearsal of an outcome. Expectaion increases the emotions which increase suggestability. Its part of the process not separate. Advertisers and certain politicians and leaders have known this for centuries.

People don't "con" themselves they respond to a process.





One of the last living 10-in-one performers. I wanted to be in show business the worst way, and that was it.
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On 2010-11-29 21:13, kissdadookie wrote:
MP, like I said, if what you believe in allows you to be very good at hypnotizing folks then keep on believing. Just don't try to force your beliefs onto others. I stated what I stated because to me personally, that's the model I subscribe to. It allows me to do what I need to do with confidence and success. If I were to go on to your model of hypnosis, I personally will not be good at it and would most probably end up not using hypnosis at all anymore because I personally do not believe in the model you believe in.


It is probably more important what "model" the subject believes in.

I have always found this arguement does it or does it not exist quite pathetic and amounting to little more than a geek measuring contest. I know Mark (hermine or whatever fake name he has chosen this time.)likes to push his belief every chance he gets and it is quite annoying. WHO CARES? Is hypnosis real? It pays for my house, my boat, my mustang, yea it is real enough for me.

Fact is in a stage setting the ONLY thing that matters is can you deliver a show? I can. The rest is a conversation that takes time away from being on my boat or in my mustang.

I will submit that if you do not understand what is going on, well then you may not be as good. I will also submit that many who seem to understand what is going on, still do poor shows. Fact is that SOMETHING is happening and you guys want to argue over what exactly to call it. You can call it SMIDGEN for all I give a hoot! Now stop the pointless bickering. It just makes Mark happy.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
kissdadookie
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Quote:
On 2010-11-29 23:25, Dannydoyle wrote:
Quote:
On 2010-11-29 21:13, kissdadookie wrote:
MP, like I said, if what you believe in allows you to be very good at hypnotizing folks then keep on believing. Just don't try to force your beliefs onto others. I stated what I stated because to me personally, that's the model I subscribe to. It allows me to do what I need to do with confidence and success. If I were to go on to your model of hypnosis, I personally will not be good at it and would most probably end up not using hypnosis at all anymore because I personally do not believe in the model you believe in.


It is probably more important what "model" the subject believes in.

I have always found this arguement does it or does it not exist quite pathetic and amounting to little more than a geek measuring contest. I know Mark (hermine or whatever fake name he has chosen this time.)likes to push his belief every chance he gets and it is quite annoying. WHO CARES? Is hypnosis real? It pays for my house, my boat, my mustang, yea it is real enough for me.

Fact is in a stage setting the ONLY thing that matters is can you deliver a show? I can. The rest is a conversation that takes time away from being on my boat or in my mustang.

I will submit that if you do not understand what is going on, well then you may not be as good. I will also submit that many who seem to understand what is going on, still do poor shows. Fact is that SOMETHING is happening and you guys want to argue over what exactly to call it. You can call it SMIDGEN for all I give a hoot! Now stop the pointless bickering. It just makes Mark happy.


I was in no way bickering but your dismissal of the importance of the performers belief is way off target. The performers beliefs plays a large part in how the performer performs. No matter what belief the performer believes in, if it's only half arsed, the performance will show that. You obviously have your own beliefs and that has obviously helped you in your work. That's all I am trying to say here.
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Both points of view make sense to me. Sometimes I appeal to my subjects model as they understand it. Sometimes I present a new one and encourage them to identify with that. Sometimes I appeal to the model they inevitably have on board even if they are unaware they have one.

Right now I am in the situation where my beliefs about hypnosis are ahead/different to the beliefs you may think I have when I perform. My performance will be reshaped eventually to fit.

In theory belief makes a difference. In practice I find it makes none. That is what makes the presentation of hypnosis so flexible and why it has been given a thousand names through the ages.

It is not about what I believe. It is about what I can make you imagine and encouraging the perception and belief if you like, even if for a short time, that what you are experiencing is happening automatically because of something you or I or we have done. That's it. No change in state, no trance, no increase in suggestibility. It's easy, it is like a conversation. It's just like breathing. Anything else is window dressing. That window dressing is one element of your performance.

Anthony
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Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On 2010-11-30 09:20, kissdadookie wrote:
Quote:
On 2010-11-29 23:25, Dannydoyle wrote:
Quote:
On 2010-11-29 21:13, kissdadookie wrote:
MP, like I said, if what you believe in allows you to be very good at hypnotizing folks then keep on believing. Just don't try to force your beliefs onto others. I stated what I stated because to me personally, that's the model I subscribe to. It allows me to do what I need to do with confidence and success. If I were to go on to your model of hypnosis, I personally will not be good at it and would most probably end up not using hypnosis at all anymore because I personally do not believe in the model you believe in.


It is probably more important what "model" the subject believes in.

I have always found this arguement does it or does it not exist quite pathetic and amounting to little more than a geek measuring contest. I know Mark (hermine or whatever fake name he has chosen this time.)likes to push his belief every chance he gets and it is quite annoying. WHO CARES? Is hypnosis real? It pays for my house, my boat, my mustang, yea it is real enough for me.

Fact is in a stage setting the ONLY thing that matters is can you deliver a show? I can. The rest is a conversation that takes time away from being on my boat or in my mustang.

I will submit that if you do not understand what is going on, well then you may not be as good. I will also submit that many who seem to understand what is going on, still do poor shows. Fact is that SOMETHING is happening and you guys want to argue over what exactly to call it. You can call it SMIDGEN for all I give a hoot! Now stop the pointless bickering. It just makes Mark happy.


I was in no way bickering but your dismissal of the importance of the performers belief is way off target. The performers beliefs plays a large part in how the performer performs. No matter what belief the performer believes in, if it's only half arsed, the performance will show that. You obviously have your own beliefs and that has obviously helped you in your work. That's all I am trying to say here.


No the point is that each subject needs to be dealt with as individuals, even within a group dynamic. The most sussessful hypnotists do this. If you only deal with them or relate to them in one way, it does not give you a shotgun effect. Within this dynamic is to understand the different "belief systems" that exist. (But right where the rubber meets the road your belief or non belief is not relevant. IF you follow directions this stuff works, and it does not matter why it works. You can tell me you do not "believe" in gravity, but do you float off the planet? It is what it is. IF you follow the directions it works. Things do not have to be much more complicated. Concentrate on them following directions and less on the theory. More ways to get them to follow directions are needed.)
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
kissdadookie
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Fair enough and I agree with both Danny and Anthony. I guess my wording was off. My idea/approach to this is that the performer needs to believe that it will work for any chance of it actually working and in turn, what the performer believes in plays a part because if the performer goes in with the mindset of "I'm going to give it a try but I don't think it will work because I don't believe in it" then it will obviously have a negative impact with negative results. So what I was really saying was not quite belief in hypnosis but in believing that what they do will work in order for it to work with the odds stacked on the performer's side. It's similar to the concept of truly believing that one placed a coin in the other hand when doing a false transfer with a coin. The coin really isn't in the other hand but the appearance of placing it there is helped along by the perform imagining that he really is placing a coin there.
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