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Dannydoyle
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Why do you associate mindpunishers dislike or hatred for the impromptu stuff with me? Show me where I said anything except "it is not for me". This is part of the problem, you want me to let you be you, but you will not accept any other opinion! This is where it loses steam that all you want is to let you be you. No what you are searching for is some sort of acceptance.

The fact that you know TONS of stage hypnotists in the first place is part of the problem mindpunisher is talking about LOL.

You would do it for free. Great. Nobody would know the value of what you do better than yourself. I do have a problem with SOME of the claims made in SOME of the nonsense put out today. "Hypnotise anyone anywhere under any condition" type of crap. I do have to say there is a HUGE difference on almost every level between accosting people in bars for free, and doing a stage demonstration.

So stop lumping me in wiht mindpunisher. I have never said anything negative about pub hypnosis or street hypnosis or whatever you want to call it. If you want to work for free, go for it. It does not have an impact on me in the least. Like I said, you want us to respect your position yet you tell me I am the old guy from the Muppet show. Somehow though I have never said anything agianst the street pub stuff. Hmmmm. Maybe Mr. Kettle would like to meet Mr. Pot.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
mindpunisher
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God forbid anyone should be lumped in with me...my deepest apologies to Danny.

Bob you sound like an old guy trying to be a teenager. And I'm impressed by all your academic qualifications including psychoherapy but...a lot of your practical knowledge from what I can gather is not that great. Including hypnotherapy.

You only have to dig up some of your earlier posts to find that you were struggling hypnotising anyone only about two years ago and you seemed to have learned from Ant.

You also said you didn't know a single stage hypnotist in a number of your posts and threads in the past. You do know a lot of hypnotists that work pubs though. Something I did for maybe the first three months when learning stage work.

And from what you told me a lot of them aren't very good. I suspect those are the ones that love impromtu or doing it in the street because that's probably the level of where they are at.

The truth is there aren't really a ton of GOOD stage hypnotists. There are a lot of bad hypnotists around who will work for free or nothing. And that number is growing daily. Hacks ...

One of the easiest things to do is to sell poor hypnosis to kids and idiots for peanuts. Gee I could even sell drugs if I wanted too - seriously I know someone who could set me up.

But on both acounts I choose not to
quicknotist
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My input here of late has often been some misplaced humour, some badly chosen words and some "heat of the moment comments" for which I apologise.

For me, as a performer, I don't mind admitting it all comes down to "the market."
As a stand-up comedian, writer and mentalist on one hand and a hypnotist doing therapy, training and corporate seminars on the other, I was "fortunate" here in NZ (where we have a lot of outdoor festivals including a successful international buskers' festival) to stumble upon an opportunity to do a roving form of entertainment hypnosis which married my main skills well and didn't conflict with my work as a therapist, trainer, presenter and speaker.

It just happened to translate well to TV, radio and another thing that NZ is known for: "Guerilla marketers." Those with what the Kiwis call a "number 8 wired" mentality, spurred on by the innovative nature of a small isolated country, who wanted to incorporate some hypnosis into their marketing: Brand launches, seminars etc. Where the time constraints and number of spectators might be less suited to a traditional stage show.
So I started performing and marketing a "short-form" entertainment hypnosis which those corporate clients perceived as more flexible.

Some things are much easier in the environments I work in and some things are a bit harder, but when all is said and done, it's still entertainment hypnosis, for which I often charge more than those who travel less light and perform for longer. That's what I mean when I say "There is something in between."

I don't pretend to be a "guru" but when other people in the industry ask me what it is that's different about what I do and how I manage to make money out of it, I'm happy they do. Of course, a lot of newbies ask me the same and I would much rather they learned safe, ethical practices than just ran around accosting people in bars and on streets.

I'll freely admit my original teachers, mentors and those I learned from didn't like the idea initially, but once they realised I wasn't "giving it away for free" saw me train and saw and heard from those I'd trained, I slowly managed to gain some modicum of their respect. Jon Chase made me a fellow of his academy and I like to think even some dear old masters, no longer with us, were slowly coming around to the idea too.

Of course, I'm not naively expecting to instantly win any of you over, but I'd like to think if you met me, you wouldn't lump me in with the bar and street assault kids with only a couple of years experience.

Reg
bobser
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Hey MP. just because I use a line here or there on a forum don't go thinking for a minute that that might be my reality. I do like to spin a wee line now and again. As someone whose been perfoming mentalism since mentalism started I'm pretty good at playing myself down.
However, I know fully just how good I am and exactly what I know. I can do stage, street. party or fix a doxen people's phobias in a day. Just so you understand I'm effing well sh-t hot and I know it.
But guess what? I'm also sane, and I know that tons of people are as good as me, and many more better, therefore I have no delusions of grandeur. I also know that the secrets of what I do is that there's no secret. And yes, although experience is great I'd rather watch someone with talent than someone with experience. A GREAT hypnotist told me: "I teach it all in a morning, but the course lasts a couple weeks. It has to for the money I charge."
I've seen guys with performance skills pick up hypnosis and mentalism in a week to a level where you'd think they'd been doing it forever. Mentalists won't thank me for saying this but good magic actually takes longer, because you have to learn 'the chops'.
Apologies to Danny. It was just a line. Nobody is like MP. He's actually quite lovely in person by the way. He just gets road rage in here.
Bob Burns is the creator of The Swan.
mindpunisher
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Thing is Bobser we know who these hypnotists are that can teach everything they know in a morning. because you've told me. They are highly rated but I don't rate them as highly as some do. I do however rate highly other hypnotists Ive trained with in the past at what they do. Because I got extremely good value for the money I spent and could not have learned what they taught me in a morning. And they gave me a good foundation from where I have built on for many years since. I can see it in every post and every conversation face to face those that don't have this foundation. Or perhaps its not so much a foundation but just my view based upon all the things I ve brought together...I dunno.


>>>Hey MP. just because I use a line here or there on a forum don't go thinking for a minute that that might be my reality<<<<< I don't think this place is reality for anybody...for me its a habit to get me through the snow at the moment...

Ok I have a bit of a wind up and a laugh on here. But I do have a passion for hypnosis not just stage. In fact stage is something I thought I would never go back to... Those that have done a few days training in stage hypnosis and nothing else aren't really hypnotists in my opinion. They aren't really stage hypnotists either you have to work at it long after. But the thing I do hate is the relentless marketing of cheap shabby products. Its my very pet hate and that won't change. on here or in person. My views would still be the same. Its just part of my values.

But here is my honest opinion. Hypnosis can't be taught in a morning. Ive been on residential courses that lasted three weeks started at 9 in the morning finished at 9 in the evening. And we only scratched the surface. Ive been constanly learning and honing and even creating hypnosis programmes for nearly 20 years and I still haven't learned everything. And I probably never will in my life time. Putting someone into a trance is not hypnosis its just one very very small part.

But that's just my view.

I have to agree with bobser that mentalism is not as difficult as many on here would claim. And like most things has a life cycle. Its run its course for me personally and I am moving on to things that offer me a greater challenge. Besides it has never had a decent market in the UK that I have found.

The problem is always to find and follow the market.
Dannydoyle
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While I agree that hypnosis and the art of it can not be learned in a morning, or in a couple of days, I would go further.

I think that what is necessary to put together a fantastic bookable (I guess I mean RE bookable) stage show takes a significant amout of time above and beyond the hypnosis part. Learning how to hypnotise people, and learning a script in no way prepares you to be an entertainer. THIS is where most of my problem lies. It also lies with the nonsense assumption that simply because you can induce trance, you can somehow do a stage show for a full evening. Sorry to inform you but no. Simple as that no.

It also takes a significant amount of study and practice to do anything as far as hypnotherapy goes. Again over and above the "hypno" part. Yes you have the complete fools like >MARK>LEWIS> who are perfectly content to do crappy shows and call themselves a sensation, claim that hypnosis does not exist simply because HE can't manage to hypnotise anyone. Certainly that is one way to go about it. Read a book and then go through trial and error. Fine works perfect. But if you want to be good at a hypnosis show and want it to be entertaining you had better learn stage craft. Also if you want to be good at therapy, well then some study in that area would benifit you as well.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
mindpunisher
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Therapy/training is as much of an art as anything. Working out what you need to do in order to get results in different situations for individuals and groups goes way beyond a single technique or script.
Dannydoyle
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Absolutely. Which is why I do not choose to do it.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
kissdadookie
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I go away for a bit and see what new craziness Danny comes up with, he's still stuck up on himself and the bit about the coin I see. Again twisting my words around while not allowing ANYTHING to be bad to be said about him without some kind of comeback or a "I did not say that" when he did indeed mean it through the context of what he says. I'm with Bobser on this one. The whole "I've been doing this for X amount of years thus I am the knowledgeable expert" is no longer the case in this day and age. I also agree with Bobser that magic/conjuring is indeed the HARDER field to master in the mystery arts because you simply can not just wing it. You actually need actual technical skills which require practice, dedication, and more practice (thus it's a bit difficult at times for magicians and even mentalists to grasp hypnosis since they understand things from a guaranteed cause and effect standpoint, not from a conceptual and theoretical standpoint which is in the end, what hypnosis is and still is). Even with the harder art of magic, "kids" pick it up within days what the old timers took months and years to achieve. It's not much of a stretch that even some newbies without 20+ years of stage hypnosis experience are indeed as good if not better and are as knowledgeable if not more so that the 20+ experience stage hypnotist. I'm sorry, you can teach hypnosis up to a point, after that it's different strokes for different folks and it really comes down to the person understanding it or doesn't. It's kind of like creative writing, you can teach the writing but the creative aspect you either get it or you don't.

Bottom line, Danny, you're in the minority with MP here. You can jump up and down and fall through the floor like Rumpelstiltskin but in no way shape or form change the fact that your egotistical and only want people to adhere to what you say and any straying beyond you're own beliefs, you turn a nose at along with some quite unkind words. Now I shall wait and see how you continue to twist my words and then deny any and all allegation that you were indeed in the wrong at points and that you have a nasty tendency of twisting other people's words and meanings around while denying the truth behind the meanings of your own (basically picking and choosing what can be taken literally and what can be taken conceptually even though the meanings and intentions were clearly laid out for all to see, which in turn, it's just plain foolish and childish to be doing what you're doing).

As for Bobser's quote of: "I teach it all in a morning, but the course lasts a couple weeks. It has to for the money I charge." This is all too true.
mindpunisher
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Im glad I'm in the minority here. Im also in the minority with the results I get for clients and the type of gigs I have done. And continue to do. Im pretty sure Danny is happy to be in the minority too. Even if he doesn't liked being lumped in with me ...lol

Kiss it must be really great knowing everything.

Posted: Dec 10, 2010 8:25am
Bobser IS telling the truth about the trainer who said he could teach everything in a morning. Everything he knew. Somebody to be avoided. Bobser even told me about a well known hypnotist that spent a whole day teaching sticking fingers nothing else.

But there are aspects of hypnosis that will take years to master. If you want to go beyond being a magi. Or a hack. Most on here don't.
bobser
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It s true that I told MP that story and the fact of the second guy doing the sticking of fingers.
However in both these cases I have to say that I do believe both were excellent trainers.
The former for truly telling me what he believed: that a person CAN be shown how to hypnotise a certain % of the population in one morning. In fact a couple hours would do that dependent of course on the talent of the recipient. I am told the rest of his course is excellent also.
In the case of the latter, I went to see him to drink of his own personal experiences and really enjoyed the day. His system was better than mine. I learned something. I now use his system.
I went on another 3 day course a couple weeks ago. It was.... kinda' ok. At one point the guy finally revealed what everyone on the course had come to see/hear. It was over inside 30 minutes. Course fee was £700 sterling. Was it worth it? I'd have to say yes.
But if we all thought the same it would be a strange world.
Bob Burns is the creator of The Swan.
Dannydoyle
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I am darn happy to be in the minority. The majority here are kids with no experience who sneak up on strangers and claim they are hypnotists. Umm if that is the majority, I am happy to be in the minority of those here. Yep works just fine for me even IF Mindpunisher is in the group with me. (He also does not sneak up on people and has pretty extensive experience.)

When you think about kissy, ummm just being in the majority does not make you smart or right but it seems to make you content so there ya go. It is a small fraction of those who have an interest in hypnosis who manage to get to where I am. Really, guys like you ARE the majority. Hey at least you have lots of company LOL! WHOOO HHOOOOO for you.

Bobser, I will say that actually hypnotising anyone can like anything the basics of the idea can be taught very quickly. Nobody doubts this. If you have a very willing subject then it can be done quite easily in a morning. The basics of painging like Da Vinci can be taught in a morning. We both know this will not result in his level of proficiency.

This is where kissy seems to miss the point. Knowing "how" do do things in no way makes you able TO do them. EVERY kid goes through this phase. "Wow he doesn't do too many difficult moves, I can do his show!" Yea sure. Charlie Schulien used to say "Yea any 12 year old kid can do these tricks, proviced he had 20 years experience". It is true.

Yea the kids all jump up and down, I AM IN THE MAJORITY! Yippie it shows your age, and it shows as mindpunisher says that you will never learn. How can you? You already know EVERYTHING! Good for you. Now the best thing is to go out and start showing everyone before you find out how little you really know. Your posts just confirm your age is all. It confirms your absolute lack of knowledge. It confirms how far you need to go, and probably won't actually get.

Mark Twain was right. “"When I was 17, I thought my father was the stupidest man on the face of the earth! By the time I was 21 I was amazed at how much he had learned in 4 years" Mark Twain”

Kind of bites but this is where you are in your hypnosis development ol kissy. Stomp and shout and whatever, fact is you are little more than a child acting out against those who know better. No biggie. The thing is that if you took 2 steps back (god forbid) and thought about it you could actually learn something. You are really missing a lot of things here. Oh well. Have fun. Ignorance is bliss.

Mindpunisher is right, to get beyond hack it takes a lot of work. Most choose to stay at hack level. Again I am darn happy to be a minority.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
mindpunisher
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Quote:
On 2010-12-10 10:41, bobser wrote:
It s true that I told MP that story and the fact of the second guy doing the sticking of fingers.
However in both these cases I have to say that I do believe both were excellent trainers.
The former for truly telling me what he believed: that a person CAN be shown how to hypnotise a certain % of the population in one morning. In fact a couple hours would do that dependent of course on the talent of the recipient. I am told the rest of his course is excellent also.
In the case of the latter, I went to see him to drink of his own personal experiences and really enjoyed the day. His system was better than mine. I learned something. I now use his system.
I went on another 3 day course a couple weeks ago. It was.... kinda' ok. At one point the guy finally revealed what everyone on the course had come to see/hear. It was over inside 30 minutes. Course fee was £700 sterling. Was it worth it? I'd have to say yes.
But if we all thought the same it would be a strange world.


Bobser one of these days you will see what I mean. If you are talking about the red dot anchor -----you would need a whole day to understand how it works and another to learn how to use anchors properly. Then there are specific systems I have personally created that get solid results for that use them. When used along side other techniques and "systems".


The fact that this was over in such a short time tells me he doesn't really understand how they work. And for some reason there is a "mystery" surrounding this little red dot which he has capatalized on marketing wise. But you also told me of quite a lot of other bs rituals and just plain nonsense he fed the hungry "ducks". Im sure this is just another one of them. Although it probably could be done right - it sounds as if no one on the course will be able to do it.

The reason we see things differently about those stories is because I know that its possible to get what I call good training that goes way beyond putting someone in a trance. that's is just a very very small part to it. I don't rate a good training taking a day to teach sticky fingers. I call it wasting a day and taking money for little return.

But I just expect more out of a training and have been fortunate enough to have worked with some good trainers in the past.
bobser
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[quote]On 2010-12-10 14:19, mindpunisher wrote:
Quote:

The reason we see things differently about those stories is because I know that its possible to get what I call good training that goes way beyond putting someone in a trance.


LOL, that can't be the reason why we see things differently. Since it's been some time now since I believed there's any need for trance.
Bob Burns is the creator of The Swan.
Dannydoyle
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Let me ask you something Bobser. Without trance, what theatrical construct do you have for what it is people are doing? I will admit that the trance is not necessarily necessary, but without it there is almost no construct for what is happening. It is what makes the whole street hyp phenemenon so much less fun to watch for me personally.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
mindpunisher
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Bobser the reason I emphasize trance is because that's about all most including yourself think hypnosis is. that's what you think you can learn in a morning.

What you believe doesn't change your knowledge base. You could change your beliefs again tommorrow it still doesn't make you a better hypnotist. Or change the fact that those guys you mention are not the best trainers to learn from.

Trust me they aren't.
bobser
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I agree completely Danny. But that's for stage. But if the performer is with a corporate group doing a talk on either persuasion, positivity or relaxation etc, then they may ask the managing director, president or top consultant to come and join them on stage and tell him that "I DON't want you to go into any trance or change your breathing or, well, anything really. I simply want to ask you if you're wide awake and you truly believe that if you wanted to, you could lift up your right arm up."
The subject laughs and says: "Yes."
They're then asked if they're absolutely certain, before being invited to try.
They try, but can't.
The room totally and completely erupts.
To conclude I'm saying there doesn't have to be a construct. Although for me it is a form of suggestion with fascination and suspense. That's my construct granted and probably isn't what it REALLY is. But nobody else knows either. And as far as theatrical goes THIS kills far more than the construct of trance in my estimation. Albeit possibly NOT in a stage show setting.

Now then MP, if you read what I've just said you'll now realise just how wrong you are in your assumption of what I think. I'm actually DENYING trance.
Yes you're correct that 'what I believe' does not change my knowledge base and if I change my beliefs tommorrow that won't make me a better hypnotist.. But here's the thing you don't seem to get. All of that goes for you too!
You told me who trained you and to be honest I'd never heard of him. However I'm sure he was good. Guess what, it's the same with the training I received. They were and are ALL good. All the stuff they do and I do...works. It simply..... works.
What is the point in telling someone who's stuff works that they are not as good as you. That they don't have your knowledge. That they're wasting their time.
Why not just get your head down and make yourself better than you already are? That's what most other people are doing. And they enjoy sharing their ideas with each other and growing together. It seems like a plan to me!
Bob Burns is the creator of The Swan.
Dannydoyle
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Bobser what is your failure rate? The arm thing how many times does it fail? Don't even try to feed me 100% certain.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
bobser
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I want it to work, I simply cannot deny that, but if it doesn't WORK then only I will know that it hasn't worked. And I then move on to something else. BUT I will take something from that and so will my audience. I will however end up with someone exhibiting phenomena, but not necessarily with trance involved.

If I've done my preamble properly and had the chance to premingle I'd expect it to work most of the time but it's totally not necessary.
Why do you ask?
Bob Burns is the creator of The Swan.
Dannydoyle
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Just curious. It seems that wandering about and bugging people that it seems to me it would be far less successful than most are willing to admit.

I know EVERY time I watch people who want to show me they seem to have an off night. I must be bad luck. I am just curious as to if anyone is going to admit what the real numbers are as far as failure and success is all. You say "most of the time". Great that is not a number. It is anywhere from 50.01% to 99.99%. Not exactly helpful.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
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