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mindpunisher
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>>>>It is not about what I believe. It is about what I can make you imagine and encouraging the perception and belief if you like, even if for a short time, that what you are experiencing is happening automatically because of something you or I or we have done. That's it. No change in state, no trance, no increase in suggestibility. It's easy, it is like a conversation. It's just like breathing. Anything else is window dressing. That window dressing is one element of your performance.

Anthony<<<<

a change in perception or imagination is a state change. that's why anchors exist in every day occurences.
I fou get me to imagine something pleasant my state WILL change as it does when I imagine something unpleasant.

If that weren't the case there would be no phobias, advertsing wouldn't work, politicians wouldn't be in power and religeon would've died centuries ago.

A hypnotist that doesn't understand states is basically a cowboy.
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On 2010-11-30 10:39, kissdadookie wrote:
Fair enough and I agree with both Danny and Anthony. I guess my wording was off. My idea/approach to this is that the performer needs to believe that it will work for any chance of it actually working and in turn, what the performer believes in plays a part because if the performer goes in with the mindset of "I'm going to give it a try but I don't think it will work because I don't believe in it" then it will obviously have a negative impact with negative results. So what I was really saying was not quite belief in hypnosis but in believing that what they do will work in order for it to work with the odds stacked on the performer's side. It's similar to the concept of truly believing that one placed a coin in the other hand when doing a false transfer with a coin. The coin really isn't in the other hand but the appearance of placing it there is helped along by the perform imagining that he really is placing a coin there.


In your coin example the magician can not really believe the coin is there. He can however simulate it and that is what matters. I have never once actually imagined that the coin is in that hand. I can not bring myself to that delusional a state.

Fact is that magic is a poor example. People know it is not real.

I have hypnotised people who do not believe in hypnosis, had them wake up and say "See I told you there was no way you could hypnotise me". How was that possible? Because belief isn't relevant. His willingness to follow directions is. A person can believe all the want but that does not get it done. Right where the rubber meets the road it is the ability to follow directions that gets it done. (Not counting on the naturals that is.) Belief is the wrong thing to focus on as you have such little control over it. Focus on them following directions for you CAN influence that. Save belief for church.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
kissdadookie
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Quote:
On 2010-11-30 10:58, Dannydoyle wrote:
I have hypnotised people who do not believe in hypnosis, had them wake up and say "See I told you there was no way you could hypnotise me". How was that possible? Because belief isn't relevant. His willingness to follow directions is. A person can believe all the want but that does not get it done. Right where the rubber meets the road it is the ability to follow directions that gets it done. (Not counting on the naturals that is.) Belief is the wrong thing to focus on as you have such little control over it. Focus on them following directions for you CAN influence that. Save belief for church.


You've done that because you did not go against the grain with the person who does not believe in the traditional model of hypnosis. It works the other way around as well. Like how you have portrayed yourself, your personal belief is in the instructions and the subjects compliance to the instructions. You believe in the instructions and that is how you get things done at the end of the day. I'm more of an analytical person so I would analyze the cause and effect both the overt and internal aspects. That is MY belief system in how hypnosis works. Does this make it any less effective then how you do it? No it doesn't. Different hypnotists, different approaches, at the end of the day, we're still essentially doing the same thing. My example with magic is perfectly fitting for this discussion. You personally feel that it's "delusional" to pretend that you are really placing a coin in the other hand when you are not thus even if you tried that approach, you're not going to fully commit to it thus that approach is not going to be an effective approach for YOU but you can't generalize and say that it's the same for everybody. Different beliefs essentially can be viewed as different styles and approaches. These are simply names and labels that we place on things arbitrarily. So you don't like the fact that I'm using the term "beliefs," fine, think of it as different approaches or styles instead. Like I said earlier to MP, I'm not arguing with the approach of anyone else (unless it's completely ludicrous but even that is often up for debate), the point I'm trying to get across is to the newbies and the point is that if they grasp on to a sound belief/approach/style for hypnosis and it helps them in hypnotizing others, then stick with it.
mindpunisher
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Kissadookie how accomplished are you as a hypnotist? Seriously it isn't about hypnotizing others. Its about reaching an outcome. If your outcome is to hypnotize others then you will always be a hack. The outcome should always be much bigger the hypnosis is just part of the journey. that's when real skills are developed.

belief plays a part in that. You have to believe you can get the outcome then you will find a way.

Belief of any model by your target isn't necessarry as Danny has said.
Dannydoyle
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Mp I tried, I really did. You saw me try.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
kissdadookie
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Did I ever say that belief HAS to be your goal? Like I've said, it may very well not be if that is what helps the hypnotist achieve what he/she needs to achieve. Am I trying to force my beliefs upon other right now? No, I'm just presenting a different viewpoint on the matter. As for my goal when hypnotizing, it is indeed to achieve an outcome, to get a phenomenon to occur and push it as far as I can get the subject to go with it. As I've mentioned earlier, I've posted what I posted mostly for the benefit of others who are new or interested in hypnosis. Do you have any idea how confusing it is for newbies to grasp hypnosis? One reason it's often hard for a newbie to grasp hypnosis is solely due to the fact that they can't grasp the idea in any meaningful way because it simply does not register in their mind because the way it's being presented to them is gobbly gook. Again, all I'm saying when all is said and done is for folks to learn about this stuff, work it out in their OWN way until they come to be proficient at the very basics in which they are now much better prepared to go into even more depth with it and explore the myriad of different approaches, understandings, beliefs, whatever one wishes to call it.

Here's a question MP, did you take up hypnosis from scratch right off the bat as if you were reading the instructions to putting together a piece of furniture from IKEA? Most probably not, you had to DEVELOP your skills and to develop your skills you had to approach the material in a way that was COMFORTABLE for you. It's like everything else in life, we understand things in ways that we are personally comfortable to accept the information in. For example, back in the days when I was being taught algebra in school, the way it was taught in the classroom was near impossible for me to understand. I then picked up a algebra book that taught the same material in a different way. The book's approach was to put context around the formulas and around how the equations worked. The context was in the form of a story of sorts with objects and what not in place of numbers. In other words, the book taught algebra in a way that I could make sense of it. Same material, same outcomes, different ways of approaching it and understanding it.
Dannydoyle
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Yea once it is all said and done, there is usually a heck of a lot more said than done.

The ONLY problem with the "work it out your own way" approach, is you may never reach a point at which you come to be proficient.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
kissdadookie
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Quote:
On 2010-11-30 12:11, Dannydoyle wrote:
Yea once it is all said and done, there is usually a heck of a lot more said than done.

The ONLY problem with the "work it out your own way" approach, is you may never reach a point at which you come to be proficient.


Totally agreed, but you have to admit, one has to start somewhere.
Dannydoyle
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Big picture friend. You are SO tied up in where you start, that you forget you may not be able to get to the finish from there.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
kissdadookie
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On 2010-11-30 13:01, Dannydoyle wrote:
Big picture friend. You are SO tied up in where you start, that you forget you may not be able to get to the finish from there.


For the benefits of others, not myself. You say big picture but it doesn't seem that you're seeing the big picture here. You obviously adhere to the way you perform and same goes for MP. MP obviously firmly believes in the different states of hypnosis and what not and stands his ground on that matter while you do not seem to busy yourself with such things. This is a forum to freely discuss things and throw ideas around is it not? It's not a forum in which one should be going around forcing their ideals down the throats of others. Like you said, such things are better left for church (or a cult). I threw my idea in the ring for others to gnaw on while others may choose to ignore it or skip it, but I am certainly not saying this is how it is and if a person says something different, that person is wrong. How do you have any idea what I am tied up in? You obviously do not. You're also obviously convinced that your way is the right way or else you will not be trying to force your ideals down upon me. Take it easy Danny, I agreed with most of what you said and I added some thoughts of my own. Everything is up for discussion but the way it sounds coming from you, you're giving it all a "my side is the right side" flavour.
Dannydoyle
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What exactly do you think "my way" is? I have not expressed it. My problem is with the way you are expressing YOUR way. As a hypnotist it shocks me to the core that you obviously have not figured out that words mean things.

I am not forcing an idea down anyones throat. That does not however mean you can not be expressing yourself wrong. Don't confuse the two. I have simply stated that belief is not relevant. I have stated that concentrating on following directions matters far more. Odd how you never ask why.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
kissdadookie
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Again, what part of what I said are you confused about? The hypnotist's understanding/belief of how it all works is important, how is it not important? How does one carry out giving instructions if one does not understand how and why these instructions work? Hypnosis is a far cry from following instructions on how to build a table one picked from IKEA. How one understands or believes in regards to what they are doing has a correlation with the manner in which he/she issues those instructions. In a very broad sense of things, at the minimum, the hypnotist needs to play the role of the hypnotist. If one is doing it only halfheartedly there is a good chance that it will have an impact on ones success. So what exactly have I been wrong on for you to try to correct me?

Here's the deal Danny, a belief that the beliefs of the performer is NOT important in regards to achieving what one is looking to achieve with hypnosis IS a belief at the end is it not?
Dannydoyle
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There are members here who do a very good show, who do not believe in hypnosis in the least. (Mark does not happen to be one of them.) Belief does not translate into reality. THAT IS WHERE YOU ARE WRONG!

Oh and for the newbies you are so hot to educate let me help. You want to focus like most hypnotists on the trance aspect of it because that is the part that facinates you personally. Great. Well if you concentrate on getting them following directions, you are better off. Why a person who is paying attention would ask? Well it is because the actual hypnosis part or trance lasts for maybe 5% of your show. Why spend SO MUCH time on that? The WHOLE SHOW they must follow directions, even and especially through the trance! Where in that equasion do you find "belief" anywhere?

You keep concentrating on belief. No biggie. But it does not really further the cause.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
kissdadookie
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Quote:
On 2010-11-30 14:07, Dannydoyle wrote:
There are members here who do a very good show, who do not believe in hypnosis in the least. (Mark does not happen to be one of them.) Belief does not translate into reality. THAT IS WHERE YOU ARE WRONG!


That IS a belief! That's how I got started in all of this! I was working with a lot of pure suggestion stuff previously and then I saw a hypnosis show in person and the light bulb went off in my head. The suggestion material I was doing was pretty much the same as what the stage hypnotist was doing except I just never placed the label of hypnosis on it. Like I mentioned before, hypnosis is an arbitrary label. The point is that one believes that it will work (regardless if one wishes to label it hypnosis or not) and one knows what one is trying to accomplish. That IS a belief. Reality after all is what one believes reality to be is it not? So, where am I wrong? Just because I'm using words that you are misinterpreting? They are just words man, the ideas I'm speaking of are sound and you have yet to disprove. I don't even know what the heck you're trying to prove in the first place apart from a wholly egotistical "You're wrong and I'm right" vibe which you are giving.

Also, when the heck did I ever mention the focus for newbies to be on trance? When have I ever even mentioned trance? I've already stated that I personally do not subscribe to the idea of states of hypnosis and I certainly do not feel that an induction is needed to achieve hypnotic phenomenon. I personally don't feel that a person needs to go into trance (or if a trance state truly exists) for them to follow through with the suggestions. As I've mentioned, I started off with suggestion material in which I obviously never tried to place the person into a hypnotic state nor did I use an induction. It was purely conviction and delivery which drove the person to exhibit hallucinations, at the time I did not even know that I was making the person hallucinate since I thought and approached it as an effect rather than a hypnosis routine.

Danny, no offense but by your insinuation that I am telling newbies to focus on trance clearly indicates that you do not have an inkling of understanding or comprehension for anything I said earlier. This is especially evident since I NEVER ONCE MENTIONED ANY FOCUS ON TRANCE OR TRANCE ITSELF.
Dannydoyle
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Let me ask you a question. How many shows do you do?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
kissdadookie
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I don't do stage shows nor have I ever claimed to. Now, are you going to answer my question as to exactly what you're trying to disprove here? Also, where the hell did you get:

"Oh and for the newbies you are so hot to educate let me help. You want to focus like most hypnotists on the trance aspect of it because that is the part that facinates you personally. Great. Well if you concentrate on getting them following directions, you are better off. Why a person who is paying attention would ask? Well it is because the actual hypnosis part or trance lasts for maybe 5% of your show. Why spend SO MUCH time on that? The WHOLE SHOW they must follow directions, even and especially through the trance! Where in that equasion do you find "belief" anywhere?"

I certainly never talked about trances or believing in states or what not. That was pretty much all MP. All I've ever said was believe in what you are doing regardless of what that belief is as long as it's giving you positive results. The belief I'm talking about also includes belief in knowing that you will get the results that you are trying to get.

So what is it Danny? Getting some wires crossed there? It certainly does seem so.
Dannydoyle
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Ok then you practice hypnosis as a therapist?
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
kissdadookie
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Nope. Purely close up. Mixed with mentalism or magic depending on the situation. That is why I was using a lot of suggestion material. Initially to accentuate existing effects and then found that the hit rate was rather high until I reached the point of being pretty much 100% with the suggestion material I was using. From that I started highlighting the suggestion material with stronger and more drawn out routines. Later I saw a stage hypnosis show, light bulb went off, and I dove into it shortly after.
Dannydoyle
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So your advice on how stage shows works comes from seeing one show?

I am jus trying to put together your knowledge base is all. It seems as if you have quite limited experience in the real world of stage hypnosis yet you want to make grand pronouncements on how it does and does not work.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
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The way I got into hypnosis is the main reason I pointed out what I pointed out in the posts made to this thread. I'm pretty sure since we're on the Magic Café, there's bound to be a LOT of magicians reading this hypnosis thread. Many times, for magicians, it's hard for them to grasp that hypnosis could be possible. They are curious about it but their belief in it being real or not, their expectations, holds them back from being just merely curious. Thus my whole point about beliefs, find the one that works for you, and go from there. It's hard if not impossible to try to learn something when you consciously or subconsciously are in odds with what you are learning.

I think this here is where our wires are getting crossed. I'm approaching this particular thread not from the do's and don'ts of stage hypnosis. That was never what this thread was about. I'm approaching it from the point of view in which magicians or mentalists who are not that familiar with hypnosis but wants to learn a little about it (or a lot). You're obviously mistaking what I said as being guidelines and rules for stage hypnosis. That was never my intention nor was it ever the point of any of the ideas I've thrown out.
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