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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The little darlings » » Trick With Lighters For Kids? (19 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Christopher Rinaldi
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Well, thankfully I'm not a lawyer...I'm a magician?

;)
Alan Munro
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I haven't used fire in many years, but that's because I could see how clients appeared very concerned over its use. Also, the lack of coverage for use of fire in the act got me to leave it out, permanently. If the insurer won't cover it, it's because it's a reoccurring problem.
KMFrye
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Hi Alan,

Is it because most underwriters flat-out refuse, or is it because of higher (significantly) premiums?

Keith F.
Alan Munro
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Quote:
On 2010-12-02 13:56, KMFrye wrote:
Hi Alan,

Is it because most underwriters flat-out refuse, or is it because of higher (significantly) premiums?

Keith F.

My insurer doesn't have riders available for their policies. However, I imagine that if someone looked hard enough, they could find coverage at a much higher premium.

I'm seen conditions at some of my performances, where toddlers aren't being kept under control by the parents - way too dangerous to be using something like a flaming duck pan. It's bad enough that a toddler was able to get in back of me, during a standup show and trip me. Luckily the kid was only a little startled. It's bad enough that a tall guy like me has blind spots.
KMFrye
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Thanks Alan.

KF
MagicSanta
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Chrisalikadingdongdandy (may I call you Chrisalikadingdongdandy?)

I did a flash string to silk for a kids show in a micro mansion once. A mother, not the birthday childs mother, jumped in and said "It isn't appropriate to use fire in front of children". I, being a rational type, incorporated flash paper and flash string into dang near everything that show, even it was just to make a fire, I would have wrapped myself in flash string if I had enough. Show was great, the interupting mother hated me, and now all those kids are in their 20s and not one of them set themselves on fire and if they do now it isn't my fault. I did use a bic.
Red Shadow
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Yes, but Santa. If one of those children had played with fire after your show, you would have been sued. Just because you survived one show without a lawsuit, does not mean you should test your luck on the next one.

You can argue your legal right as much as you want. It won't wash the blood of your hands from being responsible for a dead child, nor will it help your business reputation. It won't give you back the time you lose from having to go to court and legal expenses for lawyers. Nor will it get you any repeat work.

And that unhappy parent who did not like you using fire, dare I ask - did she ever book you for her child's parties? No - off course not. By doing tricks with anything that even resembles fire, you have basically lost all repeat and referral work. If you want your business to fail quickly, continue playing with fire.

I'm still waiting for someone to give me one good reason for using fire / flash effects in their kids show. As quite frankly, I can't think of any. All the same tricks will work without fire, and have the same end result. Fire effects are nothing but trouble. They cost money, are difficult to store, lighters can leak / break destroying all your props, can com-bust in your car and cause major damage, and in short supply - meaning you have to constantly reorder fuel / paper eating into your free time, leave a nasty smell in the room they are used in, dry out to become worthless etc.

There are no good reasons.
magicgeorge
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Although I am somewhat inclined to agree with Mr Greggy let's not make things personal and assume Christopher has posed this question and his subsequent responses in the interest of sparking debate and discussion on the forum. Here are my thoughts on the thread:

The kind of fire magic that would worry me the most is the stuff that is easiest to emulate therefore I personally wouldn't set a bank note on fire with a lighter or throw matches into a cooking pot. I'd have less problem about using a fire book or juggling flaming torches.

I don't know why everyone is going on about the "PC brigade". Unless you're using the lighters to set fire to ethnic minorities you're muddling up the "PC Brigade" with the "Health and safety Brigade". To be fair though, they do buy the same newspapers.

Also as Mary pointed out earlier, if you are not actually lighting the lighters then why not use something of a similair size; penknives or small lumps of asbestos for example.
Red Shadow
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Because the issue here is not about 'Pc Brigade', or trying to change the thought processes of the client. Its about what makes sound business strategy in order to bring in repeat work.
You can argue the legality of using fire, the reasoning for why you should be able to use it and all that until you are blue in the face.

At the end of the day, you need those clients to rebook you and recommend you for future work. Any effect that removes that option from your potential clients should not be performed. It just plain business acumen - if you want to succeed, you give the customers what they want. And what they want if for you to not use fire effects.
Christopher Rinaldi
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Quote:
On 2010-12-02 21:21, MrGreggy wrote:
So Christopher, what is your real reason for posting that "question" about using lighters for kids shows. It obviously wasn't to get an answer, because you've already made up your mind. Your reason was to merely to cause an argument. I believe you're type is referred to as a "troll". I could be wrong on that title. You're coming across as an idiot. Please just shut up and go away.


Well gee, aren't you mister polite, I should just go away huh?

*shakes head*
magicgeorge
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I can see where you're coming from, Stephen,and agree that pleasing clients is a big part of getting repeat business. However, I know several successful magicians who use fire (sensibly) in their acts so maybe it's less of a concern for customers than you think.

Maybe the number of clients who are impressed by some small pyrotechics out-weigh those who are against it. You'd have to do a survey to find that out rather than just assume what the customer wants.
KMFrye
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Quote:
On 2010-12-03 06:56, magicgeorge wrote:

The kind of fire magic that would worry me the most is the stuff that is easiest to emulate therefore I personally wouldn't set a bank note on fire with a lighter or throw matches into a cooking pot. I'd have less problem about using a fire book or juggling flaming torches.


Well said, George. That point was hovering in the background of my argument.

Regards,
Keith F.
kimmo
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The fire book was definitely the most requested routine in my show. I was very proud of my routine but eventually dropped it because of a report on the local news about a couple of kids who set themselves on fire in a school playground. It made me wonder what would have happened if I'd performed at the school the day befpre and some idiot had (incorrectly) made a connection.

I agree with George - can we please learn the difference between political correctness and Health and Safety?
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MagicSanta
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Dang Limey Steve whos promo for your DVD I liked. You didn't even see my post where I said:

It should be noted that kids are dumb by nature and fire, sticking things into the mouth or ear or nose, chopping effects....none are a real good idea. The difference between fire and chopping though is the kid, through the fog of dumb that is their life, realize fire isn't good.

I'm so hurt.
Jay Ward
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Is it a good idea? It may not be bad, but is it good? If someone told me, "I'm going to do a magic routine with lighters that will teach and remind kids the dangers of playing with fire." That could be a good idea. Otherwise, it's probably not such a good idea.
Red Shadow
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When children are being burnt and the person responsible is not taking any of the blame, I don't beat around the bush. I say what needs to be said. Sorry Santa, regardless of how much you like my promo (cheers by-the-way), children are being burnt all due to the magician thinking about themselves and not the clients / children. Just because you like a trick, does not mean it is appropriate for every audience you have. A good entertainer has to choose the right tricks, and sometimes that means leaving our personal favourites at home.

The original poster came on here to try and sooth his own ego. He started this thread because he knows deep down what he did was wrong and now he is after justification for his part in that child's injury. I won't give him, or any other children's entertainer who uses fire in their show any forgiveness. There actions have cause personal injury to a child. How can anybody say that is okay?

One day, you will get a child hurt. Maybe you drop the fire wallet onto the kid. Maybe you accidentally set light to the curtains. Maybe the child copy you and hurts themselves (like in the example). It seems to me that with all the tricks in this world, whey would you choose any with such dangerous repercussions.

And as for those that claim the fire wallet / book etc were the most requested part of their show. I feel sorry for you. That a magic trick is more liked than the magician. I personally get re-booked because the children and clients like me and want to see me again, whatever I do. No trick is bigger than my character.

If the tricks are out-shining you, then there is something wrong. I understand the need for good magic, but how you present it means so much more, and I strongly believe that a good magician / entertainer can make even the most boring trick entertaining.
Christopher Rinaldi
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Quote:
On 2010-12-03 18:55, ku7uk3 wrote:
When children are being burnt and the person responsible is not taking any of the blame, I don't beat around the bush. I say what needs to be said. Sorry Santa, regardless of how much you like my promo (cheers by-the-way), children are being burnt all due to the magician thinking about themselves and not the clients / children. Just because you like a trick, does not mean it is appropriate for every audience you have. A good entertainer has to choose the right tricks, and sometimes that means leaving our personal favourites at home.

The original poster came on here to try and sooth his own ego. He started this thread because he knows deep down what he did was wrong and now he is after justification for his part in that child's injury. I won't give him, or any other children's entertainer who uses fire in their show any forgiveness. There actions have cause personal injury to a child. How can anybody say that is okay?



Lmao, dude calm down, I'm sorry for laughing but you are projecting so much into this...I can just imagine the horrible negligence you must think I commited against my son, oh man.
Christopher Rinaldi
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First off I believe if one uses a lighter to lite a vanishing candle and then a moment later the candle is changed color, vanished or both the magic of the color chang and vanish is what will be remembered and stand out in any persons mind, young and old, not the momentary usage of a lighter.

A routine where the lighters are the primary props should be highly questionable in this hyper litigious day and age. I feel a patter that would teach against using lighters or matches would just instigate and prompt the child even more so to play with lighters.

If any of you truly know kids this is how they are, just tell 'em not to do something and then later watch them do it anyways...it's human nature.
Christopher Rinaldi
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I'll share somethng else with you fine folks here at the magic Café, something else about the son that got burned when playing with fire. This same kid at the age of seventeen spent the night at his friends house, while at the friends house, late at night, they were goofing off and my son got his eye poked out...literally, he has a donor cornea and retina and such and now has barely any sight in his eye and it cause him pain all the time. he is now 20 years of age and still has a hard time learning his lessons in life.

This is how he got his eye poked out, now I heard many stories about what happened that night but it took a year to get the truth out of him. At first he said him and his friend were wrestling in the dark and his eye got impaled on a bed post. Sounds horrible huh? Makes you feel sorry for him doesn't it?

This is what really happened...

Him and his friend were sitting in the dark talking smack to each other and goofing around, my son picked up a pair of scissors and tossed them at his friend. The friend in retailiation threw the scissors back at my son...my son caught the scissors in his eye.

He felt ashamed because he knew he shouldn't be throwing scissors so he lied about how he got hurt. Trust me, he is the poster boy for kids that do not listen to their elders.

Kids.

I suppose now I should be wracked with guilt and take my cut & restored rope trick out of the act now ...

Quote:
On 2010-12-03 18:55, ku7uk3 wrote:
And as for those that claim the fire wallet / book etc were the most requested part of their show. I feel sorry for you. That a magic trick is more liked than the magician. I personally get re-booked because the children and clients like me and want to see me again, whatever I do. No trick is bigger than my character.

If the tricks are out-shining you, then there is something wrong. I understand the need for good magic, but how you present it means so much more, and I strongly believe that a good magician / entertainer can make even the most boring trick entertaining.

I believe Kimmo said Firebook Routine...see that word Routine?
TonyB2009
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I am constantly being told that parts of my routine are horrible effects that will drive away business. Magicians are always telling me to drop the balloon swallow, etc. Funnily enough no booker has ever expressed those views. In fact bookers, as opposed to fellow magicians, have specifically requested those sorts of effects. For children's shows over the years I have been ASKED FOR knife through arm, fire breathing, and walking on broken glass, among others.
I am personally of the view that all three of those effects are more suited for an adult audience, but when requested I have included them. They have gone down well, and have not driven business to my rivals. I know, because I get plenty of repeat business.
Kimmo, we aren't mistaking the PC mindset and the Health and Safety mindset. We are just lumping them together because they go hand in hand. The reality is that if you use a lighter to fire a dove pan and produce sweets for the children (I don't myself, because I am too stingy!) there is no real safety risk, except in the PC and H&S raddled minds of the minority. Reasonable people (the vast majority) do not have a problem with this use of a lighter.
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