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Dayanara New user Michigan 64 Posts |
Ok, here's my big question. There's obviously a fat difference between Wicca and stage magic. So, is Wicca, magick and Witchcraft any more real than the other magic?
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magus Special user Huntington Beach, Ca 669 Posts |
Magick (around here anyway) is magic tricks with the appearance of Wicca or Witchcraft.
So, while "more" real is a question begging term, the answer is no, at least in the way you seem to mean. I had a very nice chat with a friends girlfriend who is Wiccan, and she felt that, since Wicca is learning about nature, what it is, and how it works, and using that knowledge to make certain things happen (or appear to happen) that it had certain strong similarities to performance magic. Which is basically learning about human nature and taking advantage of what it is and how it works to make, or appear to make things happen.
crappy deium-
what a lousy day to be seized thaumometer- a device for measuring a magical field |
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Sir T Special user 535 Posts |
MM Valentina,
Ok lets come to terms and go from there: Wicca and Witchcraft: The word "Witchcraft" dates back many hundreds of years and means literaly "The craft of the wise". This is because the Witches of old were the wise ones of their village, knowledgable in the art of healing, legal matters, and spiritual fulfillment. A Witch had to not only be a religious leader, but also the doctor, lawyer and psychologist of the villiage. Today, people have reclaimed this word in their pursuit of Wiccan religion. A Witch is an initiate of Wicca, one who has earned the right to call themselves Priest, or Priestess, through study, self evaluation, and spiritual living. Wicca itself, is an attempt to re-create European (mostly) Shamanistic Nature Religion, adapting it to fit our modern lives. Witches are worshippers of the Earth and it's many cycles. They believe that deity is found not only outside of our realm, or plane of existance, but that it is found within every living thing and all that supports it. Therefore, They attempt to live in harmony with the Earth, and each of it's creatures. Wiccan tend to involve themselves with ecological pursuits. magick: Magick, when spelled with a K, is suppose to be REAL magic as practiced and performed by WICCANs or other's that partake in these belief systems. stage magic:Is faithless magic, that is based on trickery and acting abiltiy, with the sole purpose to entertain and notto achieve results, to benifit mankind. I really am not trying to be long winded here, but I think these terms need to be defined before any meaningful discussion can take place. Now to your question: "So, is Wicca, magick and Witchcraft anymore real than the other magic?" The best way to answer your question is: "Yes Wicca, Magick and witchcraft is more real than other magic because, it is based on a belief system, whereas, stage magic and other magic is not and is solely used to entertain." sidenote: There are those that do, use Stage magic, mentalism and cold reading to portray themself as something other than what they are, but that is another story and would require me to go really deep into this issue. I hope this has answered your question, if not feel free to ask. MP Kevin |
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Allan-F Regular user Toronto, Ontario 131 Posts |
Quote:
On 2002-04-17 22:08, Valentina wrote: Well, let's start by defining our terms: Wicca is a religion within which a certain variety of witchcraft is practiced. Witchcraft is a rather nebulously defined type of magick. Magick-with-a-k is distinguished from performance magic (or stage magic, no "k") in that its practitioners believe that what they do is really magic--that it really defies the laws of nature as we understand them. Performance magic is the artificial simulation of real magick for the purpose of entertainment. Is Wiccan witchcraft more real than performance magic? Well, I am quite sceptical of Wicca (even though I love it), so for me the answer is "probably not", but there are certainly people out there who do believe. However, even if we take a sceptical attitude to Wicca, it has much common ground with performance magic. Wiccan and Rosicrucian magical practice, in the view of most modern practitioners, are essentially a kind of theatre that is acted out in order to suspend disbelief, focus the mind and accomplish miracles. The miracles are pure acts of the mind... the ritual is just meant to drop our rational defences and draw the power forth. It is often compared to Dumbo's feather. Dumbo could only fly if he used his magic feather. But really, the feather was just a placebo to get him to believe. In the end, he finds out he can fly without it, and in a sense could all along. My point is that the principles of presentation for Wiccan witchcraft and performance magic have similar aims. As a (fledgling) bizarre magician, one of my goals is to develop a ritual that blends the two, without violating the principles of either. Posted: Apr 17, 2002 11:13pm --------------------------------------------- Quote:
On 2002-04-17 23:01, Sir T wrote: This is certainly one source for the idea of the witch, but I really think the primary meaning of the word "witch", historically, is that of an evil magic-worker, in league with the devil, and was largely a fiction invented by the church. If one insists on finding out "who the real witches were", there are a number of groups that are candidates, including the village healer, but also including heretic gnostic Christian groups such as the Waldensians and Albigensians, the Knights Templar, freemasons and Rosicrucians, various pagan religious groups and, yes, sleight of hand artists. So basically, the meaning of the word "witch" becomes hopelessly muddled if you try to apply it to anyone real (most historians agree that the devil worshippers who provide the basic historical definition of the word never actually existed). As for witchcraft in the sense of modern Wicca, that is a largely twentieth century development... as you say, a "reclaiming" of a certain tradition. In practical terms, most of its concrete content, however, is either Rosicrucian/masonic in origin, of twentieth century origin, or is of uncertain origin. Wicca is ostensibly an attempt to reconstruct pre-Christian pagan religion, but its historical ties to such are rather weak to say the least. I really think it is better understood as an eclectic mix from many different sources that expresses a philosophy and religious practice that modern neo-pagans imagine to be in the same spirit as some of the ancient pagan practices. Its invention was not an act of historical scholarship, but an act of the imagination, based only loosely on history. And there are fewer and fewer Wiccan authors who try to claim any more for it, historically, than that. Its most solid historical source remains freemasonry and Rosicrucianism. So it is a reclaiming "in spirit", but one that has only vague connections to the traditional meaning of the word "witch".
Allan-F
"What can be thought of or spoken of necessarily IS, since it is possible for it to be, while it is not possible for NOTHING to be." -- Parmenides |
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Marduke Kurios Veteran user Vancouver, Canada 316 Posts |
Valentina,
I think they are as 'real' as your intent allows them to be. This counts for everything. Belief and will, make it a 'truth'. Marduke
Live well,
Laugh often, Love always. To the world you might be one person, but to one person you just might be the world. Without Prejudice, All Rights Reserved. |
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Tony Razzano Inner circle South River, NJ 1600 Posts |
I have attended several Wiccan Circles and continue to do so. It is simply a religion. No more, no less. A Wiccan prayer is no different than a Christian, Jewish, Moslem, etc paryer. Just praying to a different diety. A wiccan ceremony is no different than a ceremony of the Catholic Church (as an example). It is a ritual rite honoring the deity that is believed in. That's all. Nothing more, nothing less. It is not a performance art, just a religion. To claim that it is "acting" or "magic" is erroneous...at least according to the Wiccans with whom I associate.
Best regards, Tony Razzano
Best regards,
<BR>Tony Razzano, Past President, PEA Winner of the PEA"s Bascom Jones and Bob Haines Awards |
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Tony Razzano Inner circle South River, NJ 1600 Posts |
I neglected to point out in my last post that rituals af Wicca are not only to honor a diety, but the ask the diety to affect a desired result. It is the same concept of communion in the Catholic Church. The priest in the Catholic Church asks that the host (wafer) and wine transsubstantiate. A Wiccan rite, while some are to honor the diety, as I had mentioned earlier, asks a miracle from the Wiccan diety. To me there is no difference (except perhaps the desired result).
It is no more "magic" or "Magick" than any organized religion. Yet it seems to be singled out as bizarre or, by some people, Satanic. Why some people connect Wicca with magic yet the same type of ritual in another religion is not, escapes me. By the way, I use the Catholic Church as an example because I once was a Catholic so I am more familiar with it. it is not intended as singling the Catholics out. You can pretty much insert a lot of"standard" religions where I say Catholic. Now is there anything wrong with these "standard" religions? Certainly not!!!. But then there should be nothing wrong or suspect about Wicca, either. Best regards, Tony Razzano
Best regards,
<BR>Tony Razzano, Past President, PEA Winner of the PEA"s Bascom Jones and Bob Haines Awards |
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Peter Marucci Inner circle 5389 Posts |
Trintiy makes a good analogy:
Wica (which I assume is meant by the modern spelling "Wicca"), witchcraft, and magick, with a "k", are all more accurately termed belief systems. Stage magic is strictly for entertainment (or should be). So, I suppose the answer is "perhaps". Wica, witchcraft, and magick are more real to the believer. So, in that case, the answer is "yes". Wica, witchcraft, and magick are not more real to the non-believer. So in that case, the answer is "no". Like any belief system, it depends on whether you believer or not. cheers, Peter Marucci |
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Allan-F Regular user Toronto, Ontario 131 Posts |
Quote:
On 2002-04-18 08:06, Trinity wrote: I am assuming it was my posting you are responding to here, since I made the comparisons between Wiccan magick and performance magic. I do not think, however, that we are actually in disagreement at all. I agree completely that Wiccan ritual is no different in kind from what many Christians do. The catholic mass is as much a rite of ceremonial magic as Wiccan rituals. Christian prayer is as much an invocation of supernatural spirits as any Wiccan spellcasting. That seems pretty self-evident to me. Traditionally, however, Christians have regarded Christian magic as "miracle working", not "magic", to distinguish themselves, I suppose, from witchcraft. I can think of no useful justification for such a semantic distinction. "Miracle" and "magic" mean pretty much the same thing, so far as I can tell. You suggest that Wiccan rituals do not involve magic, which sounds counter to what I have claimed, but I think from your second post that this is just a semantic quibble... you seem to be saying not that Wiccan rites are absolutely not magical, but just that it makes no sense to call them magic, and not to call Christian practice the same. (Correct me if a misinterpret.) I prefer to call any ritual that claims some kind of supernatural result "magic", as I really can't imagine defining magic in any consistent way otherwise. And most Wiccans do consider that magick is part of their religious practice. As for the issue of Wiccan ritual as performance, please note that I was not saying that Wiccan witchcraft is a performance art. It clearly is not in any way. It is a religious practice. It does, however, have many elements of theatre (as does the catholic mass). While not all Wiccans would look at it that way, it is quite a common observation for Wiccan authors to make. I'm not saying all magical practice has this theatrical component, at least not to equal extent... but to me ceremonial magick, at least, clearly does (and I would consider the catholic mass to be a form of ceremonial magick, at least as traditionally interpreted). Your comment about Satanism, however, is unambiguously correct, without need for semantic wrangling (I hope!)... Wiccans are simply not "Satanic" in any way. However, keep in mind that there are people who identify as Satanists who consider themselves to be "Satanic witches", and they have as much right to claim the word "witch" as Wiccans do. But Wiccan witchcraft is not remotely Satanic.
Allan-F
"What can be thought of or spoken of necessarily IS, since it is possible for it to be, while it is not possible for NOTHING to be." -- Parmenides |
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Tony Razzano Inner circle South River, NJ 1600 Posts |
Allan,
I'm not sure whose post I was referring to...actually, I was referring to the thread in general. You and I are pretty much in agreement. I think where there might have been some confusion is that I use the word "magic" to mean entertainment only. Anyway, I certainly agree that all religious ritual contain the elements of theater, whether believed by the masses to be real or not. No question about it!! But as I said, I think we're pretty much on the same page in this discussion.Your interpretation as to the Christain rites not beiong called "magic" while Wiccan rites are, is absolutely correct. You interpreted it exactly as I meant it. Best regards, Tony Razzano
Best regards,
<BR>Tony Razzano, Past President, PEA Winner of the PEA"s Bascom Jones and Bob Haines Awards |
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Dayanara New user Michigan 64 Posts |
I regretably did not tell you all this beforehand, and I should have.
I am a Third Degree witch, Reiki Master and Shamaness, who has been the High Priestess of at least two covens. I knew all the history, guys. |
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Peter Marucci Inner circle 5389 Posts |
Hmmm, I suppose that outranks my having a black belt in origami and being a 10th dan in haiku!
cheers, Peter Marucci |
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Doug Byrd Veteran user VA 361 Posts |
Peter,
Again left out. I was performing my last kata form in the black art of origami for the Black Order of Origami (or BOO as they are known) when I received a terrible paper cut. The injury was so sever that it took many nurses, band-aids, and whiskey to close the wound. Sadly, after receiving the disgraceful brown shorts trying to attain my black belt I have never gone back. To this day I cry even if I see someone folding a paper airplane. Doug (the disgraced one) Byrd
"Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc"
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Peter Marucci Inner circle 5389 Posts |
Yup, it's more dangerous than people think, Doug.
So maybe you'd better not try Bonsai! Those itty-bitty splinters are murder! cheers, Peter Marucci |
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Marduke Kurios Veteran user Vancouver, Canada 316 Posts |
Valentina, I'm just curious:
What is a 3rd degree witch? What school/system of Reiki do you study? And where did you get your Shamaness title? Thanks, Marduke
Live well,
Laugh often, Love always. To the world you might be one person, but to one person you just might be the world. Without Prejudice, All Rights Reserved. |
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Paul Inner circle A good lecturer at your service! 4409 Posts |
Actually, seeing as Valentina is a "third degree" witch and probably knows more about Wicca than most of us, but also knows the ins and outs of magic illusions, (courtesy of her long time love interest) I'm surprised the original question was asked in the first place. I see a tongue firmly in cheek here.
Magus said; Magick (around here anyway) is magic tricks with the appearance of Wicca or Witchcraft. A lot of the Magick style effects I have read with the talk of demons, deals with the devil etc. (and the emphasis on blood and gore with some postings in the bizarre section of this site) are closer to Satanism, H.P. Lovecraft and horror movies than Wicca in their patter presentations. Paul Hallas. |
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Allan-F Regular user Toronto, Ontario 131 Posts |
Quote:
On 2002-04-19 21:42, Valentina wrote: Well, don't just stop there, then, tell us your opinion on all these issues we've been discussing... you are in a unique position to have an opinion on such things, and I'm sure we'd all be interested in hearing your take on things. What connections, if any, do you see between Wiccan ritual and performance magic? Do you have any different slant to the history than what has been posted so far? How about the definition of witch? Do you allow that there are non-Wiccan witches, or do you see "witchcraft" as by definition the ritualistic practices of Wicca? And just how "real" do you think Wiccan magick is? (I have run into Wiccan writings that claim to view it all as just a form of nonmagical ritual, and don't really see the magic as "real", per se, but seem to think of it as more metaphorical--and other Wiccans seem to have rather different ideas as to just how effective the magick is, what it is and is not capable of, etc.). I'd be interested in anything you have to add to all this, seeing that you have a legitimate tie to both sides, the "real magick" and "performance magic". P.S.: a personal aside--while I remain sceptical of the supernatural/magical claims of many Wiccans, I do believe it is one of the more beautiful, rational and humanistic of the theistic religions I have encountered. I have some actual contact with it, since there is a neo-pagan group at the church I attend, but most of my concrete knowledge of it is still through books.
Allan-F
"What can be thought of or spoken of necessarily IS, since it is possible for it to be, while it is not possible for NOTHING to be." -- Parmenides |
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Dayanara New user Michigan 64 Posts |
A Third Degree varies from coven to coven, and Trad to Trad. In the Phoenix Rising Tradition, it is someone who has studied long and hard, and has been called to the position, whether or not they have been in 10 years, as some people say they should be.
I don't remember what the name of the system is, except that it's not traditionalist. Shamaness, like Witch, is bestowed when the student reaches a certain point. I no longer claim myself to be a master, because I have relized that there is much more to see and do, that I haven't covered. As for magic and magick? It all depends on your perception of reality. BTW: Extensive knowledge! HA! I WISH! Maybe some year down the road, when we connect again... |
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e-man Special user HILTON HEAD,SC 880 Posts |
So Who is this "Captain. Howdy" Fella anyway?
我被烹调
ERIC HELVENSTON |
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Mystician Inner circle Wallachia 3485 Posts |
Geez, e-man, what are you, some kind of Café archeologist ? Talk about digging up ancient things..
Ever see "The Exorcist" ? Cap'n Howdy was the name the demon used in comunicating with Regan via the ouija board in the beginning. Of course, he turned out to be almost as evil as Barney.
Just hanging out with the rest of my fellow dregs.
http:// www . phrets . com Visit http://www.bizarremagic.net |
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