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Orb New user 90 Posts |
I had a quite funny incident I wanted I'd share:
I've been working hard on my coin magic, been doing it for about 2 years now. I very rarely perform because I want to master everything I do before I perform, and I set quite high expectations for myself. One day when I was in town with my girlfriend she suddenly said "show me a coin trick". This kind of caught me off guard and since I have hardly any performing experience I thought I'd do something quite basic. I did a retention vanish, then quickly CP it and did a wave, and then opened the hand. She said "sorry, as you opened the hand I could see the coin slip through your fingers". This was very interesting because between the retention vanish and the opening of the hand there was about 7 seconds of suspension, yet she still claims she saw the coin slip through my fingers as I opened the hand. In a sense the magic failed because she got a sensation of having caught me, even if she didn't, but I do believe this was a very individual case, and with someone else this would most likely have been percived as magic. I just replied "ah, ***it!" and walked away with a smile! As of lately, performing for some of her friends, I have noticed that by doing a retention vanish, and then with a quick CP covered by a gesture (bigger motion covering a smaller one), I can get away with it. What really seems to be doing the trick is making sure the CP hands fingers are in motion, and appearing to be empty, as I also aim my hands just enough so one is fully exposed and the CP hand is quite precicely angle safe (if they move you have to move with them). This started off as an experiment but ended up being so successfull I continued to perform it with success. What are your opinions on this? and have you ever been "caught"? How did you handle it? |
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mago.niko Loyal user Athens, Greece 286 Posts |
When I started coin magic I was making a big mistake.. When I was learning something new I was performing it to my friends without practicing a lot the moves.. As a result I was often caught.. So when I was caught I was trying to do the same routine using a different move.. I think it's a good way to gain back the spectator's admiration.
Finally what I have learned from my little experience in coin magic is that I have to practice a lot on my own to master all the moves of a routine and then practice a lot more the routine to an assistant (for example my brother) to master the way I will behave during the routine..
Searching for the magic side of life...
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T_C_Magic New user 74 Posts |
I also practice a routine until I feel very comfortable with it. Then I pass it by my wife and daughter who critique it and suggest improvements. They both know what to look for since they both have been exposed to quite a few magic lectures. It also builds up my confidence knowing if they catch me not much harm to my ego is done. I think learning from our mistakes is the best teacher of all.
Also it happens to everyone and I mean everyone!!! TC |
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Jaz Inner circle NJ, U.S. 6111 Posts |
No matter how hard or long you practice alone, you don't really learn mastery until you perform for people.
Seems to me that your girlfriend saw an illusion. I know that for me when I pass a coin from RH to LH via ROV, or any other pass, my RH moves left to my LH and stops as LH moves out of frame, my eyes follow and focus on my LH RH relaxes and does its concealment. Actually getting caught or someone thinking they saw something does happen. How it's handled really depends on the routine, angles, etc. Sometimes it's just best to move forward. Using a ROV just to vanish a coin don't create much of a path and can be easy for some spectators to backtrack. Best used in a routine. |
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Mb217 Inner circle 9520 Posts |
Have to agree with my friend Jaz here, that's it!
You have to take it out of the mirrors and solitude and try it for people in the real world, that's where you learn and get to bring together all of the various parts that make magic work. We've all been caught or messed up a trick on the journey. You get over it and hopefully you learn something from it. You come to realize (despite how you feel from it) that it's no big deal and actually more of a chance for you to learn and better understand things. I remember once, from this very forum, a really talented young magician was showing me some magic many years back at a magic convention in NJ. He must've dropped the coins on the floor 2-3 times in trying to get through a simple coin roll while holding a coin out in CP, I think it was or something like that. Believe me, he was already good then (and even better now telling by all his wonderful DVDs) but dropped the coin over and over again, and flashed everytime in trying to show me some stuff. It was no big deal as his studiousness for what he does eventually smoothed all of that out and has delivered him far from that initial encounter at the convention. Happy for him as he really is a tremendous young magician, always thought so, always said so. Point is he was out there doing this stuff for real people, not that he didn't practice all by himself but to get all the nuances working together, you have to do it for real people, over and over and over again. That's where you add other important ingredients like confidence, presence, and even escape plans when things don't go quite right. I have found that you can mess up an effect and save it many times from complete disaster but you can't do it just in front of mirrors or while all by yourself though you can think about possibilities. Reminds me of when the great Bruce Lee said in the Chinese Connection, when watching another karate expert show off his abilities breaking wood boards...Bruce responded to him, "Boards do not hit back." Think about that. So it's good to practice things until you get the moves down solid but test drive things on others along the way so when you do it under bigger circumstances you have a clue.
*Check out my latest: Gifts From The Old Country: A Mini-Magic Book, MBs Mini-Lecture on Coin Magic, The MB Tanspo PLUS, MB's Morgan, Copper Silver INC, Double Trouble, FlySki, Crimp Change - REDUX!, and other fine magic at gumroad.com/mb217magic
"Believe in YOU, and you will see the greatest magic that ever was." -Mb |
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benjie84 Loyal user New Jersey 234 Posts |
I find it really good as many have just mentioned, to have someone close to you and honest who can act as a good 'test' subject. My room mate not only gives it to me straight as far as a technical stand point, but also can critic the routine itself. This is good to learn how certain effects play to lay people, and if the effect was understandable or if you need to tweak presentation, etc.
Im not sure what magician once said, but they mentioned its usually better to film yourself practicing then watch it back. If you practice in front of a mirror, there are times as a magician, we will unconsciously blink right when the sleight is happening. There are times I thought my pass didn't flash at all only to find that I was blinking right when the 'magic' happened. Video cameras a on the less expensive side now, its a good investment and can usually be hooked up to a computer that you can use to monitor what you are doing. Great advice so far guys! -Ben |
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Andrew Zuber Inner circle Los Angeles, CA 3014 Posts |
I agree with Ben - mirrors are good at the beginning to get the basics down, but I too found myself unconsciously looking away during a sleight, and found it difficult to perform without seeing the reflection of myself in the mirror. The camera was an excellent way to work on polishing things (in fact I spent last night fooling myself over and over again with the Mora wand spin vanish, to the point where I was giggling, realizing I was doing it with a full sized lemon and not flashing.)
I believe it's Eric Jones that says, "Get caught." Go out and perform - at some point, all the rehearsal in the world will only do you so much good. Go out, screw up, drop things, flash like crazy, and learn from each and every performance. Personally, I'm not really a street magician - I perform more in formal settings, so I will film routines once I feel I'm ready to do so, and post the links here on the Café. You'll find that you get some wonderful advice from guys like Marion.
"I'm sorry - if you were right, I would agree with you." -Robin Williams, Awakenings
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Orb New user 90 Posts |
Thanks for all the advice, this has got to be one of the strongest and best communities I've ever seen!
It's very true that the more you work by yourself, the less you learn about actually performing. But what if you perform for say, your girlfriends friends, and mess up pretty big time, how would that affect future performances for them? Is it the basic psychology that if you don't care they won't care or is there anything more to it? Oh and marion, I love that Bruce Lee quote! Very true. Jaz I read that that is the most efficient technique indeed. Although, you have probably seen Giacomo Bertini's work, and what is so very interesting there is how he'd base his techniques on his gestures, and the same way he'd CP the coin after his ROV in his "vanish & reproduction" video, by motivating it with a wash-esque/wave movement. That is the technique I went by, unsure if it'd actually go past unseen, but which seem to have worked out greatly. When I started my coin career I learned the basics from bobo's like most people, but (young and foolish as I was) when I started working on routines and more advanced techniques, I went right away into mr.bertini's work, fascinated by his clean magic. This gave me a very fast and very reliable CP which I use to my advantage nowadays. What do you think of this technique? I am merely a puppy and am happy to receieve any info and opinion I can get, especially from such experienced people. And I should absolutely start performing routines, my big problem tho seems to be that I can't settle on which routine to get fully down yet. I have a basic ambitious coin routine and spellbound routine I love to show her siblings (7-10 years old) which goes well, which is great because I heard they can be quite a tough audience (brutally honest), but also, they don't think too much, which might work a bit too much to my advantage to claim anything! And thanks a lot for the camera tips, I'll start doing that as soon as possible! The only problem is though that the resolution is so bad my head basically becomes one pixel (exaggerated joke!). Sounds like a very valuable tool though which I should definitely save up for... or maybe even request from santa! |
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BanzaiMagic Inner circle 1339 Posts |
MB, you are so right about the difference in performing in the safety of your home and performing in front of an audience (especially an audience of one or more magicians). If you don't feel nervous before a performance, you are just going through the motions and you are not performing up to your potential. The key is to learn how to manage those nervous emotions and you can't do that without actually performing in front of others.
Regards, Alan |
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Mb217 Inner circle 9520 Posts |
Yes BM, there is a big difference indeed.
I remember once long ago I was doing an effect with a silver dollar. Now I didn't use dollar coins much then but just thought I'd use one this time around. I was peforming the trick pretty well but the guy told me during the trick that he could see the coin between my fingers in the right hand. When I looked, I could see the silver coin through the fingers too. My windows were wide open and I felt so embarrassed. I eventually got over it and began working on closing the windows and came across methods to cure the problem. That "caught" moment made me greatly aware and started me toward things I use today in more staggering my fingers and Liwag Subtlety. Nowadays I can put my hand up right in front of your face and you see nothing. I've not only learned how to shut the windows but developed a much deeper understanding as to what specs see and how they see it. So much that they now see nothing but what I want them to see, laymen or magician makes no difference and I'm quite confident about that. Yessireee, there's much to learn in getting caught indeed. It can make you better like a good switch from a tree, straightens you right out everytime.
*Check out my latest: Gifts From The Old Country: A Mini-Magic Book, MBs Mini-Lecture on Coin Magic, The MB Tanspo PLUS, MB's Morgan, Copper Silver INC, Double Trouble, FlySki, Crimp Change - REDUX!, and other fine magic at gumroad.com/mb217magic
"Believe in YOU, and you will see the greatest magic that ever was." -Mb |
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Cpontz Special user Daupin PA 553 Posts |
Excellent point MB.
Getting caught will help you improve if you pay attention to why you were caught. If you get all upset and worried about getting caught, you will lose the moment and probably not learn much from the experience. It is only through repetition that you become comfortable enough with the move or routine to be able to observe the spectator and know when you have been caught and be able to understand why you were caught. Practice and rehearsal will only take you so far. You have to do the routine over and over for real spectators to be really able to learn how to notice when something is not quite right and then think about how to fix it. Hope this helps. Craig |
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RJ Hunt Elite user Lakeland, FL 466 Posts |
Just tell them be thankful you're not a doctor and this aint brain surgery...LOL
Everyone flashes once and a while and if anyone says different their full of crap. Jazz and Mb hit it right on the head with their advice. You have to perform NOT show magic to get better as a magician and really understand what the art is all about... |
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bicycle66 Regular user 108 Posts |
Brain Surgery that good....agreed with all above I also feel that if you practice yourself with mirror and camera and once you think you have it show the people who are your support cast to try and find the flash if it passes thoes tests then try real people with the nerves in the real world the more its done the more 2nd nature it becomes and you will be able to do the magic without really thinking about it and you can interact with the spectators more and have more fun.
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Lawrence O Inner circle French Riviera 6811 Posts |
Just don't perform publicly until you can do it in your sleep and without thinking
Magic is the art of emotionally sharing live impossible situations
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Denis Bastible Loyal user Buffalo, New York 293 Posts |
In the last two weeks, I just something in one of the magazines about the ROV vanish by a well known name that escapes me- ah getting old is great. In any event, his point was that once you show the hand empty the heat naturally, after a second or so, goes to the other hand. His advice was to pre load a coin under a nearby object and once you show the empty hand, you immediately go to the object, lift it and show the coin. The vanish then turns into a (transportation?- again the word escapes me) and there is no thought of the other hand, which leaves you one ahead to go onto something else. I thought it was a interesting point.
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PAUL K Special user Massachusetts 547 Posts |
[quote]On 2010-12-08 09:41, Jaz wrote:
No matter how hard or long you practice alone, you don't really learn mastery until you perform for people. Agree 100%. |
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lynnef Inner circle 1407 Posts |
Quote:
On 2010-12-09 06:56, Lawrence O wrote: I like this advice very much. It's not saying you have to be a pro, but you have to be able to do the effect without thinking about it much (and drawing attention to a burn). Goes for card magic and performing music as well. I'll bet your best tricks are the ones you've done so many times, you end up concentrating more on the patter than the sleights! By the way, when performing for my wife, she is looking to burn ... same for your girlfriend? |
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KirkG Inner circle 1391 Posts |
Don't be in a rush to get out in front of people. That only hurts our art. Yes, it is totally true that you can't finish learning the trick without developing the timing of reactions of real people, but there is a lot of ground to cover first.
If you must show it to someone, show it to a magic buddy. Let them critique you on the moves. Video camera if no friends, mirror if nothing else. Develop muscle memory so you don't have to think about the mechanics. Practice the moves and rehearse the routine. Once this is done, go out and find a non client to practice on. Someone at a retirement home who can still think and see and would appreciate the company and get the jokes. Everybody benefits then. Stop doing half assed crap in public, like the you tube generation from illusionist. |
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Orb New user 90 Posts |
Thanks for all the advice!
lynnef, I think she is looking for that too, but that is only natural for someone close to you to look for "the trick" rather than the illusion, I guess that's the essence of why you shouldn't naturally be performing for your family. Though since I've never really had any friends in magic it's hard to get to a performance state by spending all the time in front of the mirror (I heard webcam is supposed to be a great solution, I'll try that out!) denisb, that's indeed very interesting! I love the theory behind it. KirkG, that's is some very good advice about developing muscle memory. Please know that I'm not jumping out to the world doing "half assed crap", I've been working hard on my coin work for 2 years and do not yet perform proper routines because I see I need more practice. I saw an opportunity to try a simple vanish out (I'd normally ditch the coin and end clean but found that you don't actually need to with proper CP movement, I have a strong body language which I take to my advantage) and it worked out great, it was a quick and small yet beautiful illusion which caught everyone I later tried it on off guard. I realize it's not something to be called a full proper performance but they wanted to see a little something and I gave them that, and it worked out great, I found it to be very encouraging. |
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Jaz Inner circle NJ, U.S. 6111 Posts |
Quote:
On 2010-12-09 19:01, denisb wrote: Is is. Using the concealing hand to do something is good. Reminds me of a lecture by Bob Bengal (sp?). Bob stood at his table and placed a coin in his hand and walked into the audience. He then tossed the coin invisibly across the room. it was seen laying on the table. No cover, just some good misdirection. |
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