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panlives
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Can anyone shed some light on the true provenance of so-called “Vernon” Cups?

It seems to me that the name is used to invoke a patina of credibility. I have seen the reference used by a few manufacturers.

My question is two-fold: did Dai Vernon ever “endorse” a set of Cups and agree to lend his name accordingly? Did the Vernon Estate ever endorse any Cups and if so (and I ask this with the greatest respect) what criteria was used?
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"The dog did nothing in the night-time."
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Andrew Zuber
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His estate endorsed Brett Sherwoods cups. You can read a bit about it on Brett's site.
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Bill Palmer
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The story I got on the Harry Stanley cups was that Harry had heard a description of Vernon's cups, and decided to produce a set that met the criteria -- 3 rings, rounded top, available with or without engraving. These were to be produced to concide with Vernon's first lecture tour in England, roughly 1952. Well, that's like trying to design a cow without seeing what it looks like.

AFAIK, Vernon never endorsed these.

The Sherwood engraved cups were endorsed/licensed by the Vernon estate.
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panlives
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Quote:
On 2010-12-16 09:50, Bill Palmer wrote:
The story I got on the Harry Stanley cups was that Harry had heard a description of Vernon's cups, and decided to produce a set that met the criteria -- 3 rings, rounded top, available with or without engraving. These were to be produced to concide with Vernon's first lecture tour in England, roughly 1952. Well, that's like trying to design a cow without seeing what it looks like.

AFAIK, Vernon never endorsed these.

The Sherwood engraved cups were endorsed/licensed by the Vernon estate.


Thanks, Bill.

I guess the criteria would be a private contract between the Estate and the manufacturer...?
"Is there any point to which you would wish to draw my attention?"
"To the curious incident of the dog in the night-time."
"The dog did nothing in the night-time."
"That was the curious incident," remarked Sherlock Holmes.
Denis Bastible
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On a related topic, did Don Alan or his estate ever endorse or license a particular model or brand of Chop Cup?
Lawrence O
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There was nothing original in Don Alan's routine apart from his style and entertaining talent: he really had very little to endorse.
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Denis Bastible
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It seemed that he was much copied back in the day and would have been in a advantageous position to say "this is my cup" and reap some financial benefit
Bill Palmer
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Don was a rather strange fellow. If you read the material in In a Class by Himself you will find a magician's garden of exaggeration and misinformation.

However, he did actually endorse the Rings and Things Don Alan chop cup. For his endorsement (according to Don's estate) Mike Brazill gave him six of the Don Alan chop cups. Don did not design the cup. Mike did.

Don never used the Rings and Things cups anywhere but at magic conventions. At trade shows, he used the original Wheatley Master Cup, Jr.

If you see a Wheatley Master Cup Jr. for sale, and they claim that particular cup was used by Don Alan, be aware that the cup he used had been beaten up by banging it against the table "at the critical moment," so the mouth bead was banged up and misshapen.
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Denis Bastible
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He did love slamming the edge of the table at the two "moments". I own and read In a Class by Himself, and it is apparent that he believed his career progress had been derailed and that his act had been stolen by too many.
Mobius303
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Don also used a hack saw to shorten it to fit into his Atache Case. It had a bit of a rough edge to it as well as being banged on.
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@ Mobius -- I'm sure that first one had long since been shelved. The one I saw him use at the Offshore Technology Conference at various times was fairly easy to spot as one of the Wheatley Master Cup Juniors. But the edge looked like one of those finger rings we used to make by pounding a silver coin against the ground repeatedly.

@ denisb -- Don was a very interesting character. He would tell someone to use something, and then when they did, he got P.O.ed. The whole story about "Fred" and "Clyde" was basically fiction. I know where he first saw the "Name that card" effect, and I know where he got the decks he used. I was there. And there were only two people in the area at the time. Capisce?

At one of the TAOM Conventions, Roger Crabtree asked Don what he would have to do to win a close-up competition. So Don decided to pull his leg. He made up a really wacky routine that nobody could have worked out in a hundred years. It ended up with a live mouse running out of a hole in Roger's hat, running around the brim and running back into the hole in the hat.

So, Roger took him up on the idea. He actually did it. He made it work. And when he won the close-up trophy the next year, Don accused him of stealing his material. Don gave it to Roger as a practical joke, and he was livid when Roger actually made it work.

He was booked into a big convention one year to do a lecture. He came out and instead of doing a lecture, he did a one hour diatribe on why people shouldn't steal material. I challenge anyone on this forum to name any trick that Don Alan actually invented.

I know there are a few people on this forum who feel that Don Alan could do no wrong. He was human just like anyone else.
"The Swatter"

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My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."

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panlives
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Quote:
On 2010-12-24 16:54, Bill Palmer wrote:
I know there are a few people on this forum who feel that Don Alan could do no wrong. He was human just like anyone else.


Bill,

In the spirit of the season, this is a nicely balanced remark.

We are all only human, with all the flaws and imperfections of the species.

No less, no more.
"Is there any point to which you would wish to draw my attention?"
"To the curious incident of the dog in the night-time."
"The dog did nothing in the night-time."
"That was the curious incident," remarked Sherlock Holmes.
Andrew Zuber
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Very interesting information, Bill. I had no idea!
"I'm sorry - if you were right, I would agree with you." -Robin Williams, Awakenings
Denis Bastible
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The text of the diatribe is in the book, I believe.
Pete Biro
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I was there when a fellow magician produced a giant metal nut, in front of Don, and Don went ballistic. Don later said to me, "You can use anything of mine you want."

On the big auction site, after Don had left the room, I bought the sucker silk to egg and back to silk, that Howard Bammann created for Don and it had badly fooled me. Don's nephew, I believe, had put all of Don's props, etc. on the auction site.

Posted: Dec 24, 2010 9:05pm
Back to the Vernon Cups... I have a set (Unique Studio, copper sans engraving) and would consider selling. PM me with OFFERS
STAY TOONED... @ www.pete-biro.com
Denis Bastible
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Pete, the "diatribe" referred to earlier which is in the Don Alan book was a lecture Don gave at a 1975 convention where you are involved with a comment about your "uno, dos, tres, double dos" line. Small world this magic thing..
Bill Palmer
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Denisb -- 'twas I who referred to the diatribe, not Pete.
"The Swatter"

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My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."

www.cupsandballsmuseum.com
Denis Bastible
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I didn't say he referred to it, I just brought up that in the transcript of the speech Don refers to Pete's line and Pete makes a comment about how he came up with the line. As Pete had some comments on the subject I just was amazed at what a small world it is (35 years later).
Pete Biro
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35 years ago? Heck I don't remember what happened last week.
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Lawrence O
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In his Revelations DVD shot at the time in VHS by Videonics and now marketed in DVD form (I think it is #5) Dai Vernon speaks about his cups and where and how he got them
Magic is the art of proving impossible things in parallel dimensions that can't be reached
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