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Wes65 Inner circle I've said very little in 1219 Posts 
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I often see effects billed as being "magician foolers" and that seems to be attractive to many magicians. However, does the word "fool" have the same meaning when applied to a magician as it does when applied to a lay person?
For example, a coin vanish: A magician knows that either a f**** tr******, st*** or di*** took place so he is fooled when he does not know what exactly took place or when he can not duplicate the exact technique. But, to the lay person, a coin did not vanish if he sees any movement from a dirty hand, a dirty hand looks like it is holding something, movement is unmotivated, unnatural or in any other way suspicious. Another example; a fast pace routine: To the magician, he is fooled when every thing happens so fast that he can not pick up on any of sleights used. To the lay person he may feel that he only witnessed quick and cleaver sleight of hand and is satisfied to have figured that much out. I find, in my own coin magic, I have to keep reminding myself who my audience is or I'll be in danger of weakening an effect by trying to make it better.
Wes
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rutabaga Inner circle Toronto, Canada 1283 Posts
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Wes, agreed... first rule of any communication [including coin magic]... always know your audience! Thanks for the reminder.
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Father Photius Grammar Host El Paso, TX (Formerly Amarillo) 17161 Posts
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To me fooling magicians is a waste of time. I was in a hurry once and didn't have time to prepare for a magic club meeting. Our custom was , after dinner, to go around the table and each magician did a trick. Since I hadn't had time to prepare anything, I thought I'd go for a laugh. So I took a quarter and did a french drop, or at least appeared to do a french drop, but in fact simply took the coin in the normal manner. Then showed what the magician would have presumed to be the dirty hand as clean and said "ta da". I didn't get much of a laugh, only a couple of chuckles, but after the meeting 4 magicians present came up and offered me money to teach them the move.
Magic is for entertaining, not fooling. Know your audience and know what will entertain them.
"Now here's the man with the 25 cent hands, that two bit magician..."
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Mb217 Inner circle 9531 Posts
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Totally agree with you Father.
 It's sorta like trying to out-math the math teacher, or something like that.
I typically do magic for laymen much moreso than magicians. Think most magicians do if their lucky.  But amongst that group of laymen I'm sure there are some magicians in there and they get just what the laymen get from me, and are most times just as amazed, probably inspite of themselves. 
*Check out my latest: Gifts From The Old Country: A Mini-Magic Book, MBs Mini-Lecture on Coin Magic, The MB Tanspo PLUS, MB's Morgan, Copper Silver INC, Double Trouble, FlySki, Crimp Change - REDUX!, and other fine magic at gumroad.com/mb217magic
"Believe in YOU, and you will see the greatest magic that ever was." -Mb
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rikbrooks Inner circle Olive Branch, Mississippi 1317 Posts
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I used to spend several hours a month with Fred Donaldson. It wasn't really lessons but just listening to an old and very accomplished magician as he walked down memory lane. The 'lessons' simply came from the conversation. There is one that is very relevant to this thread.
I used to purchase tricks from Fred (he had a small magic shop). I told him I'm interested in tricks that would force me to hone my skills, not self-working tricks. I love linking rings and cups and balls and such. I told him that I loved the practice. He told me that there are three kinds of magicians. There are those that perform for other magicians. They may be able to make a living giving lectures or maybe open their own store or by selling lessons. Then there are other magicians that perform for the public. Finally there are other magicians, like myself, that performed just for themselves - these magicians are indulging in magical !@#$%^&*()_+. Then he advised me to step away from the mirror and go out and find an audience - that I would learn more in that first performance than months in front of a mirror. He was right. I found an audience. I learned several BIG lessons. Here's one, never combine nylon and fire. You very well may set yourself ablaze. Another: Once you've set your hand ablaze cups and balls becomes infinitely more difficult. |
Jumbopenny Loyal user Bay Area, Northern California USA 257 Posts
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Quote:
On 2010-12-19 16:55, Father Photius wrote: Basically, you did a Spider vanish and those 4 magicians didn't know what that was? Did you do the tossing motion with the taking hand or simply show the dirty hand empty? |
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Corbett Inner circle Indiana 1161 Posts
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Magic is designed for laymen. As magicians, this should be our focus. If a fellow magician is fooled at any time, that's kind of a bonus, but should never be the goal.
Just my opinion. |
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Father Photius Grammar Host El Paso, TX (Formerly Amarillo) 17161 Posts
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Quote:
On 2010-12-22 12:38, Jumbopenny wrote: I didn't do any vanish, I simply held the quarter in my right hand between my thumb and forefinger, and took it with my left hand, then showed my right hand empty.
"Now here's the man with the 25 cent hands, that two bit magician..."
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Jumbopenny Loyal user Bay Area, Northern California USA 257 Posts
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"I didn't do any vanish, I simply held the quarter in my right hand between my thumb and forefinger, and took it with my left hand, then showed my right hand empty."
Either you've come up with something revolutionary or those magicians really fooled themselves. It's like playing paper,rocks, scissors and they're trying to be a step ahead of you. In actuality they're a step behind. I think you short circuited some brains there. If you did that to a layman they would either be confused or think it's silly. At the risk of looking like a fool I'm going to try this on some laypersons and see what happens. |
harris Inner circle Harris Deutsch 8812 Posts
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Smart people are sometimes easily fooled. I am.
I heard an interesting quote quite a long time ago. It goes,"many magicians are lay people with business cards". As an addiction counselor, I am well aware of the lies our brain can tell us. As Pogo said, we have met the enemy and it is us. Be safe, well and creative. (and I need to remind myself of rule 62...don't take myself too seriously. Harris
Harris Deutsch aka dr laugh
drlaugh4u@gmail.com music, magic and marvelous toys http://magician.org/member/drlaugh4u |
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Mb217 Inner circle 9531 Posts
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I have to agree with you and Pogo, Harris my friend.
I have always marveled at the fact of how it doesn't matter how smart you are for magic to be effective. I am often in situations with political figures, lawyers, accountants and doctors, teachers and professors, captains of industry and many others and find that in magic they are all the same. No matter who they are, you approach them the same way and show them the same thing and they are most times amazed by the same amazement.
I actually proved all this stuff to myself one day when I showed my eye doctor a little trick using a Retention of Vision vanish. Upon the coin vanishing the Doc just couldn't believe it, shook his head and said, "I'm the one that needs glasses." In front of all his degrees and awards, I was basically using the physics of his own profession on him and he had no clue. He asked to see it again and I did it for him in slow motion and the same thing happened as he focused strongly on my hand or so he thought. This time he rubbed his eyes in even further disbelief. To let him off the hook (figured why not use a little misdirection on him), I went on to mention how great I thought all his pretty accomplishments on the wall were. So much for who you are or who you think you are.
In fact, you are more likely to run into a smarta^^ spec that you might not think matches any such Hi-IQ status of things. These sorta folks can be anybody really but typically I have found they are rarely the sorta folks I mentioned above here for some reason? On the other hand, Know-It-All specs see magic as a challenge or test they have to pass or show others there that they can't be fooled...They just have to do it. Typically these are people you wouldn't like much even if you weren't showing them magic. And every once in a while they could be the actual magician themselves, as Know-It-Alls know no boundaries and can be found in all groups of people and maybe some animals I think.
Anyway, I like doing magic for laymen and everyone I do it for, whether laymen or magician is a laymen to me as to what they see and perceive in my magic. Their opinions might be based on who they are and what they might know, but their amazement in those purer moments, most of the time is based on me. Since that dynamic never changes, I'm always holding a pretty good hand to win.
*Check out my latest: Gifts From The Old Country: A Mini-Magic Book, MBs Mini-Lecture on Coin Magic, The MB Tanspo PLUS, MB's Morgan, Copper Silver INC, Double Trouble, FlySki, Crimp Change - REDUX!, and other fine magic at gumroad.com/mb217magic
"Believe in YOU, and you will see the greatest magic that ever was." -Mb
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Chris W Regular user Have you seen my 176 Posts
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I don't really get the chance to perform for magicians, unless I hit up a magic lecture. I perform for family and friends. My family loves it and my friends generally do as well. One is the type that Marion talked about, the Know It All guy. He is super smart and loves to figure out things. So I've talked to him about it and told him to just enjoy it and not try to figure it out. It's not as fun that way. That actually helped. As a teacher, I try to perform every now and then to my high school students. That's pretty fun and usually get good reactions.
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Mb217 Inner circle 9531 Posts
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Funny CW, I taught college for 10 years while in corporate America and used to also use magic in my classrooms for students. It was a lot of fun for them but also I used it to make strong points they could feel and think more deeply about and always remember. I used to show that same ROV to students and blow them out their seats right upclose, they couldn't believe it! The lesson was, "If I can do all that right in front of your faces, what can people do all behind your back in life?"
I could always see the little minds beginning to think more deeply upon that poignant presentation.
*Check out my latest: Gifts From The Old Country: A Mini-Magic Book, MBs Mini-Lecture on Coin Magic, The MB Tanspo PLUS, MB's Morgan, Copper Silver INC, Double Trouble, FlySki, Crimp Change - REDUX!, and other fine magic at gumroad.com/mb217magic
"Believe in YOU, and you will see the greatest magic that ever was." -Mb
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Chris W Regular user Have you seen my 176 Posts
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That's awesome. I use cards to make points on probability to my freshman. "What's the chance I find your card?" Then I end up finding it and going through an ambitious card routine. Fun stuff and gets they're attention. I still have kids coming up to me this year and asking me to do the Probability Card Trick to them from last year. At least they remembered something!
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mtb New user South Africa 61 Posts
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Quote:
On 2010-12-22 15:14, Mb217 wrote: This is one of the most eloquent posts I have read on how magic works for people. Thank you.
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Sammy J. Inner circle Castle Rock, Colorado 1786 Posts
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Mb is wise beyond his years. A great friend and a great resource.
Sammy
Sammy J. Teague
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J-Mac Inner circle Ridley Park, PA 5338 Posts
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Quote:
On 2010-12-22 15:14, Mb217 wrote: And I can attest to that - after all, even I can be an effective magician!
Jim |
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shamsiel Regular user 120 Posts
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Quote:
On 2010-12-22 11:01, rikbrooks wrote: Hey, that "magical !@#$%^&*()_+" quote actually comes from a real, and obscure, "Magick" (occult) source. I'd know. Was Fred influenced in any way by the Occult? Just curious. Respects, Shamsiel |
Pete Biro 1933 - 2018 18558 Posts
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I consider myself an entertainer first, and the magic is just a tool. When I worked magic conventions I did material designed to fool magicians, but for laymen do the simple stuff.
Good example was Fred Kaps. As great a sleight of hand guy and could fry magicians, I went with him to many shows in The Netherlands where his layman act consisted of: Spot Card, Professor's Nightmare, Chinese Stick. etc. He was very entertaining and got lots of laughs. I had no idea what he was saying, but he got laughs in his native language.
STAY TOONED... @ www.pete-biro.com
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27300 Posts
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Quote:
On 2010-12-19 13:30, Wes65 wrote: Effects simple and direct, please. Routines that engage and a flow of action that's easy to follow. Once things get contrived they have to be set up... and that takes time one might not have to explain. Any magician fooling is just there to help ensure that folks looking in odd places will not find things out of place
* Magical... YouTubeation?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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| The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Nothing up my sleeve... » » Who are you fooling? (0 Likes) | |
Posted: Dec 19, 2010 06:30 pm 
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