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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » You are getting sleepy...very sleepy... » » Somnambulism Question (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

Muzz
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Before I ask the question the definition of a somnambulist that I am working with is "somebody in a permanently suggestable "state"." If this definition is wrong then I'd love to hear how you view somnambulism and clear up my misconceptions.

Anyway, my question is really this. How do you know when you are working with an somnambulist? After all if you have done your set up, done an induction and then proceeded to deepen them further they may turn out to be a very good subject. A good subject could maybe have positive and negative hallucinations etc, but how do you know whether they are a somnambulist or just a good subject with that hypnotist on that particular night?

Given my inexperience as a hypnotist I'm sure I'm just missing the point, but at what moment do you realise you have found a sonambulist, someone in a permanently suggestable state, rather than just a good subject for that night? Are there "signs of a somnambulist" over and above that of a good subject? Or is it just the simple fact that a good subject IS a somnambulist?

Right, hope that makes sense. If 1 in 5 people are meant to be somnambulists then I'd kind of like to know how to identify them.

Thanks
mindpunisher
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I don't pay attention to that term. Everyone to a degree is in a suggestable state. Some can be quickly lead into a hyper suggestive state. Some who may not normally respond that way can if the motivation is there.

If I were you just drop that term be aware of what is going on in front of you and proceed along the process.

They are easy to identify they are the ones that follow along with your hypnosis. Serioualy that's all you need to know.
Muzz
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Thanks Mindpunisher, interesting stuff!
Mindpro
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Many newbies do seem to get hung up on certain aspects and over complicate things. What you're ultimately looking for are good responsive subjects which is simply just a matter of watching how they are responding to your suggestions. Watch them and look for the tell-tale signs of a good responding subject. This may be an over simplistic perception, but it is really all that matters.
dmkraig
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If I'm at dinner and ask someone to "pass the salt," my guess is that 90%-98% of the people will do so.

I've made a suggestion (pass the salt) and most of the people respond to the suggestion. By your definition, up to 98% of all people are "somnambulist[s]...in a permanently suggestable 'state.'"

I agree with MP (the world must be ending). Pay attention to what is going on and don't worry about silly definitions of levels of hypnosis. In most instances they are worthless. They are primarily good for getting university research grants (and not very good for that).
mindpunisher
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>>>>I agree with MP (the world must be ending)<<<< Unfotunately when you look at the alternative on here these days it looks quite dismal.

I would agree on the academic study and research grants. However be aware of some "Guru's" on here that quote academic texts and argue based upon those texts. They are basically posers that have little real knowledge or expirience. And most of all be aware of any cheap "training" products they might try sell you.
dmkraig
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MP, from what I've seen and paid for, the cost of a product has no direct relationship to its quality.
mindpunisher
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The point I am making Craig is to be aware of any product where the seller isn't making you aware of the dangers. I don't want to get back into a debate you can disagree if you want. However its the cheaper products I worry about since I assume they sell the most.

Total newbies and the majority on here couldn't tell you if the training is good or not where as you may be able to.
Muzz
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Dmkraig, I understand your issue with the definition given. When I say permanently suggestable state I mean one that overrides the critical faculty. I'd question also whether "pass the salt" was a suggestion and not simply an imperative, but I see your point.

To the majority of other posters I agree 100% that perhaps it does not matter but since when did that stop an enquiring mind? In the big scheme of things most things don't matter but that's not a reason not to pursue them.

Mindpro, I have no desire to get "hung up" about levels of hypnotic states, I've just heard the term somnambulist and wondered how to tell the difference - if there is one - between a somnambulist and simply a good subject on a particular night.

If people don't know then that's fine, maybe there is no difference...

cheers,
mindpunisher
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Somnabulist is fancy term for a good subject. Someone that easily goes into the "deepest" trance. My experience tells me that many many more will go if there is enough motivation for them to do so. For therapy somnabulism is not necessarry. Too many people and therapists put to much importance on "whether I was hypnotized or not". Its not about that - its about solving your clients problems.
Muzz
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Hi mindpunisher, thanks for that! What exactly to do you mean by "many more will go if there is enough motivation for them to do so"? For instance, could a clinical motivation simply be "if I do this I will be cured"?

Cheers
mindpunisher
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It could be but to be honest its not necessary in a clinical situation to get someone in a deep somnabulist state. Most people think think the hypnosis is important. It isn't really that important. A good therapist will numerous techniques and skills that don't even question the depth of trance because the truth is it doesn't matter.

Many tv shows you see where there is some hypnosis are created by advertising for people to be hypnotised. They are usually paid a fee and in many cases trying to break into show business so they are highly motivated to be hypnotised.

Ive had girlfriends in the past who have failed to be hypnotised and said they would never allow someone to do it. That until you tell them about all over body orgasms and some of the other effects you can achieve with hypnosis. Then they go pretty fast and pretty easily..
Muzz
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Oh I see! But then are we getting into the realms of social compliance? Mind you, the all over body orgasms sound good...
dmkraig
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Quote:
On 2010-12-31 15:36, Muzz wrote:
Hi mindpunisher, thanks for that! What exactly to do you mean by "many more will go if there is enough motivation for them to do so"? For instance, could a clinical motivation simply be "if I do this I will be cured"?

Cheers


Muzz, it's great to see your interest and I strongly suggest you take some in-person trainings as this would all be explained.

I'll let MP answer the first question for himself.

As to your second question:
1) It depends upon what it is and
2) I don't know about other countries, but in the U.S. it is actually illegal to claim that hypnosis (or more accurately, hypnotherapy) cures anything.
mindpunisher
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I would seriouslsy forget terms such as social compliance as I would somnabulism. I can't bohered with all the theories out there. And the stupid argument whether it exists or not. Or whether its manipulation etc etc. To me they are all parts of what I refer to as hypnosis.
kissdadookie
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On 2010-12-31 18:11, Muzz wrote:
Oh I see! But then are we getting into the realms of social compliance? Mind you, the all over body orgasms sound good...


"Social compliance" boils down to a label just as "somnambulism" is really just a categorical label. The labels are useful really only to the extent of being able to more clearly describe things but doesn't necessarily equate to the actual work. Dmkraig makes a good point in regards to the whole curing via hypnosis. It's not a claim that should really be thrown around as if it was a form of treatment for a disease or what not.

As for your other question in regards to "could a clinical motivation simply be "if I do this I will be cured"?" The motivation doesn't have to be a clinical one at all. It's really a motivation that the subject could relate to. For doing this stuff in an entertainment context, you're going to want to weed out those who are willing to go along with you in as short of time as you can. Outside of an entertainment context, if the goal was to just successfully get a person to follow your suggestions (within reason) without being limited to time, you can technically hypnotize anybody to an extent (again, within reason). In other words, if you were allotted unlimited time as well as an infinite attention span by the subject, you can eventually talk them into following the suggestion (though this is of course pretty much useless in an entertainment context as the reality is that you don't really have all that much time to wait and work with a person until everything clicks for them and they become agreeable with your suggestions).

Along the same lines of if given no time constraints and infinite attention span by the subject, it may also be possible to condition a person to become a "somnambulist." Again, in all practicality, what could be possible does NOT mean you should bother yourself with it because reality is that you are faced with time constraints and you are faced with a finite attentions span by your subject(s),
mindpunisher
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That's not quite true. You can only talk someone into following you if they are motivated to do. Some people even so called somnabulists will never follow you because they simply don't want to for whatever reason and never will.

In groups its different. Some people in a group cannot stop themselves even when they don't want to volunteer - find themselves going along at the back of the room.

that's why you work with whatever comes up and forget about labels. It can be unexpected and sometimes people respond in surprising ways that can throw you. Which is why you need to be careful.
kissdadookie
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Quote:
On 2011-01-03 18:52, mindpunisher wrote:
That's not quite true. You can only talk someone into following you if they are motivated to do. Some people even so called somnabulists will never follow you because they simply don't want to for whatever reason and never will.


Again, I mentioned that with no time constraints and with infinite attention span from the subject, you can eventually condition them to the way you want the person to be. Now motivation IS important and when I say no time constraints and with infinite attention span from the subject, it does NOT mean that you should be going against the grain. It means you have to find the specific "tactic" which would work on this particular subject and this does include a motivation which will agree with this particular subject. In case MP is wondering, I am actually agreeing with MP with the addition that if one had no time constraints and with and infinite attention span from the subject, practically anybody could be hypnotized (you just need to find what clicks with this particular person, but again, something that is technically possible to do DOES NOT mean that one should do it because obviously you are going to be under time constraints and your subject DOES have a finite attention span).

Continuing with the point in regards to how in a group, the dynamics are indeed different, MP makes a good point on that. Please do keep in mind that the situation, the setting, you are hypnotizing in does have a big impact on how things will play out.
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