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magic4u02
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Have to disagree on that one. Obviously nothing personal mind you. In a suspension the body is suspended at a point. The broom suspension for example is the arm pit. It would be silly to have the arm extended outwards with the rest of the body. In the chair suspension, it looks more natural to have the body suspended outward. the head hanging naturally downward just adds to the natural look of the illusion.

In the broom suspension, it is the arm that is down and hanging naturally. In the chair suspension it is the head that is held naturally downward. With the head held straight out and the body straight out causes 1) too much tension and simply doesn't look natural at all.

I may have to take some photos if I get a chance to. 1) with the head using a head rest support and 2) one with it naturally hanging down. even in a photo you can literally see what looks better to an audience.

Kyle

Posted: Nov 20, 2011 5:02pm
Phil: do I think a child will complain in the middle of a show? Absolutely. lol Not being mean here at all but yes they will. kids will be kids and they will flat out tell you if they are not comfortable with something. They do not heitate at all.

Your numbered statemnets are all valid. That is simply becaise SO many magicians perform this illusion wrong. They rush into it with no knowledge and they do not take safety tips in to account. You simply must study the illusion and learn to perform it correctly. if you do, it plays huge with no risk at all.

1) there is no reaosn for a child to get scared if you work the illusion properly with a good routine. I never use a child under age 5.

2) No reason for the kid to move. If you set it up right and have the child properly on the illusion, the child will not move. Also, the routine and the way in which you engage the child before placing them on the chairs is crucial. there is a right and wrong way to go about it.

I find offense to the statement "maybe you are happy to take a risk with a child's safety." Obviosuly you do not know me to well and that is ok. Anyone who knows me knows that safety of a child is absolutely the number 1 thing on my mind with every single routine I do. In fact the sole reason I even wrote my ebook was because of the safety issue and the lack of safety information that was NOt found anywhere or in any instructions.

I wrote the ebook and I talk so much about this illusion simply because I want magicians to know about safety issues and to perform the illusion 1) as it should be performed and 2) with safety #1 so as to not fear performing this.

if there is EVER a risk or if any safety measure does not get met, then the illusion is not performed. it is as simple as that.

Kyle
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Dynamike
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Quote:
On 2011-11-20 12:48, magic4u02 wrote:
If you have not seen the illusion performed with the head hanging gently down, then that magician is simply performing the illusion wrong. This happens so many times. it is one reaosn why I researched the illusion and wrote the book on it. Too many magicians are not performing the illusion correctly. The position does not hurt at all.

Kyle

I perform it a lot myself where the head is hanging down on the end, but never like you mentioned from the side.
Quote:
On 2011-11-20 10:03, magic4u02 wrote:
I then would still have his shoulders parallel to the anhcorage chair and his head hanging gently off the side.

Kyle, try keeping the head centered going straight down the back end. If you have the individual turn their neck to have the head hanging off the side, everything will be off balance. Try performing it as the pictures show, to where the head is down on the end. If you want more help on that I would be glad to support you.
JamesinLA
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Kyle,
I understand the comparision you are making re: the chair suspension and the broom suspension. (And I recall you have both illusions.) However, I believe that isn't a valid comparsion for a couple of reasons.

In the broom suspension, the suspension point is UNDER the arm. That makes it physically impossible for that arm to join the body in its sideways suspension. That perhaps was a clever way to achieve a natural look to having the arm seperated from the suspended body.

However, in the chair suspension, there is nothing hampering the head from joining the body in its suspended attitude as there is in the broom suspension.

Also, the proof is in the concept itself. The illusion is supposed to be that a body is suspended at a particular point.
You state that the logic of the illusion is that the body is only susposed to be suspended on one side of the suspension point but not on the other side. We could test the logic of that statement by proposing a mental test: say we moved the point to the small of the back. Would then it be logical for the the part of the body to the right of the suspension point to be magically suspended, and the rest of the body to the left of the suspension point to not be suspended?

I would argue it would not. So I would argue that the chair suspension illusion would be strenthened if the head also appeared suspended WITHOUT any apparent suport.

Jim
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Dynamike
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Jim, you can't argue with Kyle about the Chair Suspension. If everything is not done his way, it is done wrong. Am I right Kyle? Kyle is the only Chair Suspension king in the world. Am I right Kyle? Everyone performs the Chair Suspension dangerously unless they buy his book and do exactly as he mentions. Am I right Kyle? I saw Jay performing his Elite Chair Suspension on his video. I saw no step as Kyle mentioned in his e-book. So Jay must not be doing it in a safe manner. Am I right kyle.
JamesinLA
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Another thing about the comparsion of the broom suspension is that we must remember that the body and that arm in question--the arm which you say does not achieve suspension with the rest of the body--that arm and the entire body IS suspended in the vertical position in the broom suspension. We must understand the broom suspension--as I know you do especially since you have one--that a magical effect is produced just by having the body "suspended" in an upright position by TWO BROOMS. Since when can the bristles of two brooms hold the weight of a human body. Then one broom is removed and the body is suspended in a vertical position by one broom under the arm and the arm in quesiton is also in a vertical position. That alone is a magical effect. The only reason the already suspended arm does not join the body is because it is physically blocked from doing so because of the suspension point is under the arm. That is why it looks logical to an audience for that arm not to go horizontal with the rest of the body in that last phase of the effect.

Jim
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Dynamike
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Just give him a minute Jim. I am sure Kyle will be back with some answers.

The only one who can have Kyle change his mind is Dave. http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......start=60 Check out when Kyle post "my jet set legs do not lock or spring to a locked position" Later he post "I would like to apologize here. Actually I got my set back out again when I did the New years Eve event. They do indeed snap into place. I just never realized or had forgotten that they did."
magic4u02
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Mike: sorry my friend. I think we are both doing the same thing. It was confusion in the terminology. Sorry about that. What I meant was not the side. The head hangs naturally off the end of the board where the chair is. Sorry for the confusion. So we are both doing the same thing. =)

James: I understand where you are coming from. I really do and I thank you for your thoughts. The problem is, it simply doesn't look right. It looks awkward to an audience. The other problem you have is one of logistics. The idea is that there are 2 chairs and a board laying on those chairs. How does one logically explain the head rest attached to the board? It looks awkward right form the start.

If one was to use a headrest of any kind (and I personally would not) then you would have to make it look logical to an audience. The reason the board does is because the audience sees the board and that board is what is holding the child up. The board is seen to be removed and so how is the child suspended...magic. So if we are to use any sort of head rest, you would need to address this issue.

Mike: there is no reason to yell at me or to trash talk me. We are peers, fellow magicians and friends. I am not making fun of you are blaming you or yelling at you. I am simply having a discussion. nothing more. I am sorry if you felt I was attacking you. That is not the case at all. I am merely expressing a strong opinion as we all are here and I respect everyone for that.

Jim: I can agree with you on the broom suspension. However with the head rest idea, this can be done. The problem is that I have not once seen it utilized and addressed correctly.

so let us think about this as peers, friends and fellow magicians. let us say we want to utilize a head rest of some sort. Then how would we use one to make it logical for the audience and to not make iot take away from the illusions power?

As I see it there are several key things that would need to be addressed and solved for the head rest to work properly. Let us look at them and talk about them.

1) the head rest needs to look and feel logical when the audience looks at it on stage before anyone is placed on it. It has to make sense to them for it being there. Without the head rest we have 2 chairs and a board resting lightly on top. So how do we then create a head rest so that it looks logical and does not look "funny"? I have my own answer for this and will share it in a few.

2) ok so say we solve the logical look and feel for the head rest so the audience buys into it. How then do we tell the audience that the head rest they saw in the beginning is NOT supporting the childs head at the magical moment? in my mind there has to look to the audience that there WAS a support holding the head but now we removed that support and the child's head is magically staying straight.

3) we then have to solve the problem of hiding the head rest gimmick as well as the illusion gimmick from view. With the head up, this becomes a more of a challenge as it tends to be more in plain view.

Now this is not to say that the head rest can't be used. It is saying that should we use one, the top 3 things have to be solved in my mind. Wouldn't you all agree? I would think we would need to solve each of these to have a head rest look and work correctly.

Personally I think it can be solved. I just have never seen it solved yet so far. every head rest I have seen has never solved these issues and so hence looks bad in performance. If one were to really study the above 3 ideas and solve for each of them, then you would have a head rest that would and could work.

I look forward to your thoughts my friends. but please, I am not attacking anyone. I am merely having an open discussion with you all as I do respect your thoughts as I always have.

Kyle
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Dynamike
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Don't take it serious Kyle. I was not yelling. =)
magic4u02
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No problem bro. We're good. Just wanted to make sure folks realized I am not personally attacking or yelling at anyone. That is just not my style at all. =)

Kyle
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pbj100
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Quote:
On 2011-11-20 17:02, magic4u02 wrote:
Phil: do I think a child will complain in the middle of a show? Absolutely. lol Not being mean here at all but yes they will. kids will be kids and they will flat out tell you if they are not comfortable with something. They do not heitate at all.

Kyle
some will many many wont kids will not. yes they are quick to speak their mind if they think it will make them look good amongst their peers. but not if likein this case they would look scared or weak.


Your numbered statements are all valid. That is simply because SO many magicians perform this illusion wrong. They rush into it with no knowledge and they do not take safety tips in to account. You simply must study the illusion and learn to perform it correctly. if you do, it plays huge with no risk at all.

1) there is no reason for a child to get scared if you work the illusion properly with a good routine. I never use a child under age 5.

.......a child simply does not need a logical reason to move

2) No reason for the kid to move. If you set it up right and have the child properly on the illusion, the child will not move. Also, the routine and the way in which you engage the child before placing them on the chairs is crucial. there is a right and wrong way to go about it.

.....How about the child that wants to see for themselves what is happening they sit up to look. no one thinks it will happen to them but one day for all the routining it could happen to you

I find offense to the statement "maybe you are happy to take a risk with a child's safety." Obviosuly you do not know me to well and that is ok. Anyone who knows me knows that safety of a child is absolutely the number 1 thing on my mind with every single routine I do. In fact the sole reason I even wrote my ebook was because of the safety issue and the lack of safety information that was NOt found anywhere or in any instructions.

I wrote the ebook and I talk so much about this illusion simply because I want magicians to know about safety issues and to perform the illusion 1) as it should be performed and 2) with safety #1 so as to not fear performing this.

if there is EVER a risk or if any safety measure does not get met, then the illusion is not performed. it is as simple as that.

Kyle

Kyle ,
I was not meaning to offend you but unless you strap them down you cannot be sure they will not sit up not 100% are you willing to risk even a 1% chance?
phil
magic4u02
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Phil: No worries my friend. I understand your reluctance. I do as most have it. However, there are ways in which to avoid this almost completely. I also have a safety check for this. It is not to say it would never happen, but in hundreds and hundreds of performances each year, this rarely happens if at all. Even if it does, I have a way in which to handle it as part of the routine itself so it is never an issue for me.

Harbin himself has a great routine and a wonderful way of presenting this.

Kyle
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Michael Messing
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Quote:
On 2011-11-20 16:46, pbj100 wrote:
...I would never perform the chair suspension for the following reasons all of which I have seen happen to other magicians.

1. kids get scared and want to get off
2. kids move causing the thing to tip and the kid slide down the plank to the floor thank god the board did not disengage from the chair

I know you can reduce the risks of this happening but even if you are doing this thousands of times every year ....it only has to tip once and hurt a child .....maybe you are happy to take a chance with a childs safety ...but not me thank you I could not.
phil


Phil, I can only speak of my experience with the chair suspension. First off, I have never used the Jim Sommers' version or the original plastic chair Mak Version in a performance. One trial of it with my assistant was enough for me to say it is not sturdy enough. Yes, it can be done safely with children if done right but the odds of a problem are greater with a model that lightweight. That is why I bought and used an European Chair Suspension to use with children. It's much more solid and not nearly as likely to tip over. It is also the reason I just switched to Jay Leslie's Elite Chair Suspension (AKA Ultimate Chair Suspension) because it is even stronger and more steady.

I've never had a child try to jump off but, if they did, I would think it most likely is going to occur before the second chair has been removed because that's when they would first get uncomfortable. With the board in place and the second chair under the other end, there is almost no way to tip the chair over with one of the heavier duty models (European, Elite, Mephisto, Bill Smith, etc.) Once, they are in place, they can't see what's going on. That's why I have the parent take a photo after the second chair and board have been removed. The other kids may say he's floating but he can't see it so there's really nothing for them to get edgy about.

Second, you really have to understand who is not a good candidate for being put on a chair suspension. Some kids are a little nervous and you have to be a calming influence. Kyle works with his wife so she's able to assist him in making sure the child is calm. When I perform the chair suspension, I use the child's mom or an older sibling to help with the performance and that helps make sure the child is relaxed. This has never failed for me. The magician really does need to understand the psychology of working with a child with this illusion. (Kyle explains it well in his ebook.)

I will have to say, though, that I don't use the chair suspension with children 5 and under. For those kids, I prefer the Flying Carpet because I think it's a lot more comfortable for them. They're not lying down and they can see everybody. That's just my preference.
JamesinLA
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First I want to say that Kyle has forgotten more about the chair suspension than I will ever know. I've only done the thing three times. From a pratical standpoint, Kyle is my source.
Having said that, I think this is a good discussion because this is magicians talking magic concepts etc.

Kyle,
I totally agree with your point that the if you're laying someone on a board at the start and their head is not on the board, then the head should hang down.

However, after the board is removed, from a purely magical conceptual basis, I think if it was real magic, I would then raise their head in my hands and the head should then remain comfortably "suspended" at the same angle as the body because the head along with the rest of the body is supposed to be supported by a magical force.

Jim
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magic4u02
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Jim: Thank you my friend. I appreciate the kind words and I am glad we can have a cool discussion on how a head rets COULD be used and how it would have to be done to make logicla sense.

Your reasoning is a good one as you stated above. this does solve the logical nature that I mentioned above. the only problem with this is that if the method is having the helper hold their head out, then that is very hard to do and actually hurts the neck more then letting the neck hang down naturally. Not saying it can;t be done, Just saying that it would probably require a helper or assistant that has been trained by you.

This would work though and look magical and logical by nature and solve the fact that you would not need a head rest style gmiick or board. the thinking is rather nice. I just do not feel it would be easy to pull off with a child assistant or reguklar assistant from the audience that has not been trained by you first.

Great discussion. let us keep it this way and look at the 3 main ideas I expressed above for a head rest usage. if we are to utilize one, then these 3 problems need to be solved.

Kyle
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Dynamike
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Quote:
On 2011-11-20 18:35, Dynamike wrote:
Jim, you can't argue with Kyle about the Chair Suspension. If everything is not done his way, it is done wrong.

See Jim, I told you.

Kyle, if Jim does his Chair Suspension your way for now on will you lay off of him?
Michael Messing
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Hey, you know what - we're entitled to differing opinions. Smile I agree with Kyle and you agree more with Jim and Denny. It's normal that people disagree. I would make a suggestion though. We're basing this on our views. Has anyone here done it both ways for the same group of non-magicians to see what they think? Ultimately, that's what matters most.

I will assume no one has done that (I haven't and I know that no one has indicated they polled audience members) so maybe someone can take a photo with an assistant with his/her head hanging down and then a second photo with his/her head being supported and ask non-magicians what they think.

If there's one thing I've learned in 38 years of doing magic it's that I don't see magic effects the same way a non-magician does. I've been caught off guard several times by what fooled them and what didn't.
magic4u02
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Mike: I am confused here. I thought your last words to me were "Don't take is seriously. I was not yelling =)". How am I supposed to take your last comment then? It seems much to much like a personal attack against me. Mike this is a discussion and nothing more or less. I am not attacking you or anyone else for that matter. I am simply stating an opinion. If you also read above, I am also sharing an idea FOR the usage of a head rest. I have even gone as far as saying that one could be used and opened it for discussion on how it could be utilized.

Michael: Thank you my friend. I appreciate it. Indeed I am not attacking anyone. I have an opinion and I am openly sharing ideas. To answer your question honestly, yes. Yes, I have tried numerous models and I have tried presenting this both ways. I did this in the research of my writing. I wanted to personally find out for myself the various ways to present it and what plays better for me.

So please folks understand I am simply open for discussion and thought and not attacks or fights with folks. Let us have a great talk about this and abut my idea of a head rest and how you could do it with one.

Kyle
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Michael Messing
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There you have it: Kyle has researched it and formed his opinion from the responses. Now, it's up to other to do the same thing for themselves if they don't buy it!

If you do so, please post back so we can compare notes.
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Ok, Michael, I am going to put what I think is best, not from what I was told, but from my 15 years of experience. It depends on the individual and the Chair Suspension. I do want the audience to see me as a great entertainer, I want to put safety first. I am not going to risk a person of their safety to have everyone admire me.

I do not know how the gimmick support looks on all of the Chair Suspensions. I just know about the Mak and the Mephisto. But the Mak is easy noticeable. It is long and narrow. Since it is narrow, it has to be long for security. The Mak's board is made for shorter individuals. That is why children are used the most with that version.

Repeat, it depends on the Chair Suspension and the individual. I have two Chair Suspensions. Let us start with the Mak. I agree with Jim how it looks better to have the head raised. But the disadvantage to me is the gimmick can be seen from several angles if the individuals hair is not long enough. Not many times I heard from someone "I see that hook." If the individual's hair is long enough I feel comfortable with the individual raising their head. But I still focus on the individual's neck strength. If I notice a strain, I tell them to let their head down so they can rest.

The Mephisto has a long board. It is made for adults. The support gimmick is very short. But it is very wide. The fabric covers everything. There is no way it can be seen because of the fabric, and its shortness. Because of the width, it is safer if the individual is off balance, it will hold more secure than the Mak version. Because of the board's length, it is too long for a child, a teenager, no problem. I see so many old adults strain their neck. It looks as if a lot of blood pressure is rushing to their head. When I first saw Matt Fore do it with a headrest, it did not look good to me. But maybe I am thinking like a magician. It is a good chance the audience is still amazed if a head rest is used. I was thinking about bringing a head rest and use it only if the individual has a weak neck. So far I never used one, but at times when I saw an older individual get up, the audience is not giving me an applause, but they are focused on the noncomfort of the individual.

By putting it all together a professional magician will not do it one way with each individual. A professional will be flexible for all type of individuals. Of course it is harder for the professional, but he will know what he doing.

Sorry to steal your job Kyle. Smile
Quote:
On 2011-11-21 11:14, magic4u02 wrote:
Mike: I am confused here. I thought your last words to me were "Don't take is seriously. I was not yelling =)". How am I supposed to take your last comment then? It seems much to much like a personal attack against me.

Are you saying I fooled The Great Kyle? Well thank you, I did not know I was that good of a magician. Smile

Kyle, relax, I was kidding with those comments towards you. I know you are not attacking Jim. I bet I did not fool anyone else. Smile

To those who are reading this, remember there is no one in this thread who is arguing. We are just putting our heads together before his next book is out. Am I right Kyle?

And Kyle, just call me Dynamike so I will not get your words mixed up with what you are telling Michael.
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I use the MAK Magic version, and purchased and read Kyle's e-book before buying the suspension. I had my granddaughter help me practice it, and all Kyle's tips were right on.

In performance, I preselect the child I want to use, talk to them, tell them what I'm going to do, and even show them the chair setup if possible.

I do the actual effect to music, and constantly reassure the child what is going on, how good they are doing, etc. Haven't had an issue with them moving or anything. And each time, the child has allowed their head to hang down freely... it's like its a natural position for them.

I put a couple velcro pieces on the drape, which allows it to fall naturally without opening, thus hiding any mechanism flash.

I like it a lot, and always get great audience reaction!
John Russell
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