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gdw Inner circle 4884 Posts |
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On 2011-01-09 15:59, Magnus Eisengrim wrote: Calling black markets an example of free markets is laughable. I did not say I didn't knew anything about 9th century slave trade, I said I wasn't too familiar. That aside, you seem to like jumping back to just government "regulations" specifically. I've never said it was exclusively regulations, I said government involvement all together. Similarly, "common" religion is irrelevant. Why do you keep obfuscating things like this?
"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."
I won't forget you Robert. |
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hou_dini Regular user 103 Posts |
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On 2011-01-09 13:44, gdw wrote: Commodity Exchange Act of 1936. Fed moves in to control speculation and futures by outlining who can/can't trade and with what (pension funds for example)dealing with commodities. Big government regulation. Early 90's, several big corporations secretly get the CFTC to grant waivers to portions of the regulations enabling these huge corporations to invest any kind of monies, drive up futures, speculation, and make a killing in trading commodities. This is why the prices of oil, corn, wheat etc. keep rising when the market demand is low or stable and supply is sufficient. Similar kind of deal to the mortgage crisis. I sincerely believe that more regulation (getting back to the original intent of the commodities act)is needed to reign in WEall Street. Just an example of more regulation making it more fair. |
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Magnus Eisengrim Inner circle Sulla placed heads on 1053 Posts |
GDW, you made the blanket statement "Well, the evidence only seems to suggest the more free it [a market] is, the better things get."
I gave three strong counter-examples. You responded by suggesting that they weren't really free, but couldn't make it clear why they were not. As I recall elementary economic theory, a free market is a market that operates without any regulation or intervention by the state. If we agree to that definition, then all 3 of my examples stand. BTW, I am not opposed to markets; but I do find the naive "all free markets are good in all circumstances" position to be absurd. John
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned; The best lack all conviction, while the worst Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats |
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EsnRedshirt Special user Newark, CA 895 Posts |
The fact of the matter is there's never any such thing as a true free market. The natural activity of a corporation is to either consume or destroy its competitors. It will use any and all available resources and options to do this, including hostile takeovers and government regulations. In any situation, the market will eventually reach stability, and stagnation, as a small group of large corporations- essentially a multi-corporation monopoly.
You can cry all you want for zero regulations and complete free market, but, Glenn, I challenge you to find one example of a real world situation where the elite monopoly situation has not occurred.
Self-proclaimed Jack-of-all-trades and google expert*.
* = Take any advice from this person with a grain of salt. |
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S2000magician Inner circle Yorba Linda, CA 3465 Posts |
Is it possible that people here are confusing the idea of a "free market" with the idea of a "purely competitive market"?
It sounds that way. |
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ed rhodes Inner circle Rhode Island 2885 Posts |
How about America in the 1900's when we developed the "power barons" who built the corporations we know today?
These regulations didn't come out of thin air. They came as a reaction to the state of affairs in American circa 1900-1920.
"...and if you're too afraid of goin' astray, you won't go anywhere." - Granny Weatherwax
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EsnRedshirt Special user Newark, CA 895 Posts |
S2000- I understand "free market" to mean a market with no government restrictions. How is that different than a "purely competitive market"? How are you going to prevent monopolies and abuse of power/position without government restrictions?
Self-proclaimed Jack-of-all-trades and google expert*.
* = Take any advice from this person with a grain of salt. |
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S2000magician Inner circle Yorba Linda, CA 3465 Posts |
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On 2011-01-09 22:18, EsnRedshirt wrote: A purely competitive market has lots of sellers all selling identical goods, where no seller is influential enough to be able to affect the market price of the good: the sellers are all price-takers. Oligopoly and monopoly are drastically different market structures than pure competition. The closest approximation to a purely competitive market that exists today would be a commodity market with a large number of sellers (producers). It is (theoretically) possible to have markets that are free and purely competitive, neither free nor purely competitive, free but not purely competitive, and purely competitive but not free. |
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EsnRedshirt Special user Newark, CA 895 Posts |
Theoretically, yes. But I defy you to find such a market in real life. Even commodities markets are, on occasion, dominated by a small number of wealthy players.
Free market theory remains theoretical. It may be a utopia, but like most utopias, it's practically impossible to achieve. We've got to work in the real world- and that means a certain amount of regulation is required to prevent abuses of the system.
Self-proclaimed Jack-of-all-trades and google expert*.
* = Take any advice from this person with a grain of salt. |
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ed rhodes Inner circle Rhode Island 2885 Posts |
So in order to have a truly free market, you would have to have some sort of regulations to stop one group from overpowering everyone else in the market?
My head hurts.
"...and if you're too afraid of goin' astray, you won't go anywhere." - Granny Weatherwax
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critter Inner circle Spokane, WA 2653 Posts |
"anti choice
anti girl I am the anti-flag unfurled anti white and anti man I got the anti-future plan anti fascist anti mod I am the anti-music god anti sober anti *** there will never be enough of anti more I can't believe in the things that don't believe in me now it's your turn to see misanthropy anti people now you've gone too far here's your antichrist superstar anti money anti hate anti things I *** and ate anti cop anti fun here is my anti-president gun anti Satan anti black anti world is on my back anti gay and anti dope I am the *** anti-pope [bridge] [chorus] anti peace anti life anti husband, anti wife anti song and anti me I don't deserve a chance to be [chorus] " 1996- Marilyn Manson
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers |
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S2000magician Inner circle Yorba Linda, CA 3465 Posts |
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On 2011-01-10 11:37, ed rhodes wrote: If by "everyone else" you mean the other sellers, then the answer is "no." You can have a free market that is an oligopoly or a monopoly. The only government regulation needed would be to enforce (legal) contracts and property rights. A free market is not the same as a competitive market. |
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MagicSanta Inner circle Northern Nevada 5841 Posts |
Yup...I don't know why some cannot grasp this.
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gdw Inner circle 4884 Posts |
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On 2011-01-10 12:51, S2000magician wrote: It is true that you can have monopolies in a free market, however, the only way for them to be maintained, in a free market, would be for them to continue to offer a superior product at a competitive price. In other words, giving people exactly what they want, at a price they want. As soon as they stop doing this, they will loose their monopoly.
"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."
I won't forget you Robert. |
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MagicSanta Inner circle Northern Nevada 5841 Posts |
El wrongo again....
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gdw Inner circle 4884 Posts |
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On 2011-01-10 16:59, MagicSanta wrote: Care to back that up?
"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."
I won't forget you Robert. |
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S2000magician Inner circle Yorba Linda, CA 3465 Posts |
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On 2011-01-10 16:58, gdw wrote: To maintain a monopoly requires neither providing a superior product not providing it at a competitive price. First, the idea of a competitive price presupposes competition. In a monopoly there is no competition, by definition. And if there are substantial barriers to entry, there isn't even any potential competition. Thus, the idea of having a superior product is moot; there is no other product - superior, inferior, or equal - to which to compare it. (If you're thinking that there might be substitute products, then you're thinking of something other than a true monopoly.) In a competitive market, each supplier will sell its product at the (competitive) market price, whether or not that is the price that maximizes their (theoretical) profit. In a monopolistic market, the supplier will sell its product at a price that maximizes its profit; i.e., the price at which marginal cost equals marginal revenue. |
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MagicSanta Inner circle Northern Nevada 5841 Posts |
I almost hate to but it will just feed your wackidoodle ways. There are govts that support companies in order to get their cost so low that other companies cannot possibly compete and are then put out of business. Then the offending company has the entire market and may charge the prices they wish. There is also a problem called 'dumping', which a company floods the market and that reduces the value below cost for others and they go out of business. that is just part of it....this is not the year 1200 and it isn't one group trading with another it is a time when companies want the whole banana not a slice.
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gdw Inner circle 4884 Posts |
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On 2011-01-10 17:10, S2000magician wrote: Said barriers to entry either are pertinent to the actual value of the product offered, in which case, again, they are providing it at the best price, OR are artificially raised barriers due to government involvement, as already outlined via regulations. Quote:
On 2011-01-10 17:11, MagicSanta wrote: My point exactly.
"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."
I won't forget you Robert. |
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gdw Inner circle 4884 Posts |
I think I'm done here.
"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."
I won't forget you Robert. |
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