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Eddiep1960
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Hello. Im Eduardo, a new member, but not new to the use of Hypnosis. I was a magician since the age of 10, and taking again this art last year.
I experimented with hypnosis for already 40 years now, with great success. I participate in a group interested in ESP phenomena, psychology and philosophy. We use trance states to create ESP phenomena with interesting results.
We compare ESP phenomena with persons in normal state and in trance state, and generally we conclude that trance states helps to create this phenomena.
Anyone here had this interest here? I will be glad to share other ideas in this theme.
bobser
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Hi Eduardo,
Like you I am extremely interested in the link between trance states and ESP. I will PM you.
Suffice to say here in Britain it has been believed for a long time that modern Spiritualism arrived here after The Fox Sisters incident in Hydesville,USA in 1848. However medical journals here show that that was not the case, but rather European Mesmerism had already reached us and was being used, not just by James Braid (The Father of Modern Hypnosis) and James Esdaile (an actual relation of mine)in a surgical sense, but also by psychiatric doctors who demonstrated phenomena at private parlour parties during Victorian times.

The interesting thing was they didn't hypnotize any of their audiences there, but rather brought their hypnotees with them. They were normally young girls from 'work houses' (places built to accomodate the poor).

The fascinating thing was that the phenomena demonstrated there was NOT stiff arms or positive/negative hallucinations, but rather demonstrations of ESP & mediumship.

I will be doing something similar this wednesday evening at a private gathering, where not only will I be hypnotising the guest medium, but I hope to try something out with the guests in 'open circle'. I do hope I'll have something interesting to report!

Regards,
Bob
Bob Burns is the creator of The Swan.
Eddiep1960
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Very interesting experience Bob. We tend to think that womans are more "intuitive" . Our investigation told us that any person ( not included gender) can create psychic phenomena with interesting results statistical speaking .

Im interested in the cultural factor in telepathy. Now with Skype and all this technologies we are trying some experiments with a group from India.
TonyB2009
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I don't want to sound negative, but if you are producing statistically significant results, then you are doing something that seventy years of scientific enquiry has failed to do. Who is scrutinising the controls you use for your experiments, and has anyone replicated your work? Without proper scrutiny and replication it is not science.
bobser
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Fair point Tony. But when it comes to the evidence or indeed proof of phenomena taking place statistics aren't that important. By that I mean if I could get just 1 person out of a thousand to exhibit mindreading whilst in trance would it really matter if the statisic were only .01%? If I could get 1 person in ten thousand to fly 100 feet in the air whilst in trance would it matter if the statistic were only .001%? Would you say that because the statistic is so low it's obviously not true?
I can assure you that solely from a telepathic point of view many many of my psychological and hypnotherapy colleagues around the world are reporting positive results when certain subjects are entranced. I've witnessed it myself in the therapy room so I don't have to question it any more.
If someone of like-mind (such as Eduardo) wishes to compare notes and get involved in the research I'm delighted, but for those who don't believe in it there is no point in any discussion. By that I men that a person cannot tell a group, who ARE witnessing something, collectively, that they are NOT witnessing it.
I do hope my post is at least understandable?

regards,
Bob
Bob Burns is the creator of The Swan.
TonyB2009
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Bob, this should not be a question of belief. Either there is evidence or there is not. If there is, it should be replicable, and not explicable by any normal means. Unless proper scrutiny is in place normal explanations cannot be eliminated.

On the question of statistics, if you get one in a thousand - or even one in a million - who demonstrates an unknown ability, that is statistically hugely significant. If it can be repeated, you are moving towards proof. That's the way science works.

Unfortunately what we get instead is anecdotes, shoddily observed and improperly recorded, and never replicable. If I guy I don't know comes on here talking about proof of ESP, he needs to do better than that. That's all I am saying.

If you are holding a private discussion you can do it any way you like. But if you are doing it on a public forum the rest of us can expect a certain intellectual rigour in the discussion.

I am sorry if that seems a bit strong, but 70 years of scientific research has failed to produce evidence of ESP, and that has to be our starting point. Once the evidence is produced, we can discuss it.
mindpunisher
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>>>>If there is, it should be replicable<<<< that's a belief!


>>>If it can be repeated, you are moving towards proof. That's the way science works.<<< that's a scientific belief!

>>>f I guy I don't know comes on here talking about proof of ESP, he needs to do better than that<<<< to satisfy your scientific beliefs..

>>>
I am sorry if that seems a bit strong, but 70 years of scientific research has failed to produce evidence of ESP, and that has to be our starting point. Once the evidence is produced, we can discuss it.<<<< You look really good for being over 70!

Of course you are talking about scientific evidence based upon scientific beliefs of what prrof actually is. However some people have religeous beliefs for example that have other points of view. In fact a scientist can have both types of beliefs.

Hypnosis is really more of an art than a science so I believe there is room for both points of view. I would alsosuggest that varying beliefs can affect the outcomes of scientifically controlled experiments or studies.

And of course everybody knows a psychic's power will dwindle when examined under scrutiny. So lets just go for it!
TonyB2009
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Science is a belief, but it is a belief that is constantly open to being challenged and knocked. There lies its power. If you prove me wrong I will accept that and change my beliefs. How many religious people can say that? Prove them wrong, and they will burn you at the stake or issue a fatwa against you.

I am quite open to hearing evidence for ESP. But I am too old for ghost stories. Anecdotes are what we tell to keep each other entertained. They are not what we base our world view on. However this forum hasn't had a good row in months. Perhaps now is a good time to dig in.
bobser
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I think you're right Tony. This one is not for open forum.
Bob Burns is the creator of The Swan.
mindpunisher
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I not one for rowing Tony peace to everyone. But scientists can be religeous too.

Can be done purely for the entertainment aspect though.
Owen Mc Ginty
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Religious scientists - that´s one hell of a contradiction.
Or then, maybe that´s just a belief Smile
If you never fail, you're not trying hard enough.
mindpunisher
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Schizophrenics....

End up being terrorists usually.
kissdadookie
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More of a cult than terrorists. There's the infamous scientologists and then the apparently quite popular Christian Science and the Christian Science Churches
(which has been popping up around down quite a bit these days). There's also the logical belief that before the concept of science was established, it was just called religion. Ah, beliefs, what a wonderful thing. So much contradiction and an abundant source for arguments.
TonyB2009
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Science and the scientific method may be a belief system, but it is the only belief system I know of that encourages itself to be questioned, and that changes when the facts prove it wrong. That is why, as a species, we have made more progress in the past 200 years than in the previous 200,000.
Owen Mc Ginty
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I don´t believe in ESP, but I was suprised to see that it is mentioned in the ormond mcgill encyclopedia. Can´t remember which section, but I´m pretty sure that mcgill mentions displays of (apparent) ESP which are (according to his book) possible whilst hypnotized.
Nothing like remote viewing or mind reading, but rather that the subject can tell when someone behind him raises their hand and lowers it etc etc.... simplistic but intriguing.
If you never fail, you're not trying hard enough.
Eddiep1960
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And when I say that I want to create science ?. Honestly as a group dedicated to the study of ESP and other phenomena , our main goal is create awareness, no theories.
TonyB2009
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Owen, there was a lot of rubbish in McGill's book - about 300 superfluous pages. It's of historic interest more than anything.

Eduardo, if you want to "create science" then you need to follow the rules of science. We collect facts, build a theory, then try and knock that theory.

Of primary importance is how we carry out our observations. In the case of psychic research this is where most of the errors have crept in. Everything needs to be recorded meticulously, otherwise it is not data. Once we have the data we must be able to eliminate the possibility of normal explanations - hence again the importance of proper rigour in our initial observations.

Finally an experiment or observation needs to be repeatable, otherwise it is just a coincidence. They do happen.

If you are not carrying out the experiments under proper controlled conditions, then you are not doing science. You are just telling stories. And we have had seventy years of stories without evidence.
Owen Mc Ginty
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I should have known by the title - I have never had the inention of reading any entire encyclopedia of any other nature LOL.
If you never fail, you're not trying hard enough.
Dannydoyle
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Bobser the percentage does matter. For what you have is a coincidence not science.

Scientific method is great. One thing is that it must be able to be FALSIFIED to be science. You set up things so they can't be. Do some research and learn about what is science before you claim things please. Scientific method is a very spacific term. Much of science is perverted today and many start with a belief then twist things to prove it. This is EXACTLY what you are doing.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
bobser
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Well Danny, you're getting closer (probably checked out some statement on the internet?) but you're still not quite there.
Bob Burns is the creator of The Swan.
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