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MagicSanta
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I believe the question is if he was aware he was violating the law. They said it could take years to try him...
LobowolfXXX
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On 2011-01-24 18:53, landmark wrote:
To stir things up a bit and get back on track--

Now that the right has conclusively agreed that Loughner is just a crazy mentally ill person, not influenced by any external violent discourse whatsoever, will they support the insanity defense for him? It will be interesting for me to find out, since most conservatives I know have in the past been against that kind of defense.


I expect it won't have much of an effect. Most mental illnesses don't negate criminal liability, and the disagreement most conservatives I know have with the defense isn't that a particular defendant isn't mentally ill, but rather that his illness shouldn't excuse his actions.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
landmark
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"Most mental illnesses don't negate criminal liability."

True, if someone is suffering from say, depression, it doesn't generally absolve her from blame. I'm under the impression however that most insanity laws are dependent on whether the defendant can tell right from wrong.

The argument that the right seems to be making in this case is that Loughner was so crazy that no external political discourse could have affected him, he was too crazy even for that. I think the right will find themselves in a dilemma, since those against insanity defenses will either have to say this is a special case or give up their political get out of jail free card when it comes to provocative rhetoric.

Interestingly, Arizona has a guilty, but insane plea whereas the Federal law does not. He is now being charged under Federal law because of the shooting of Federal Judge Roll.
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On 2011-01-24 19:22, landmark wrote:
"Most mental illnesses don't negate criminal liability."


The argument that the right seems to be making in this case is that Loughner was so crazy that no external political discourse could have affected him, he was too crazy even for that. I think the right will find themselves in a dilemma, since those against insanity defenses will either have to say this is a special case or give up their political get out of jail free card when it comes to provocative rhetoric.



I disagree. If I tell you to go jump off a bridge, and you do it, then 1) you're probably crazy, and 2) I'm not responsible for your actions.

If you stop along the way to rob a bank, and get survive the bridge jump, your craziness doesn't get you a pass on the bank robbery.

Moreover, as an affirmative defense, the burden would be on the defense to show by clear and convincing evidence that as a result of his mental disease or defect, he was unable to appreciate the nature or wrongfulness of his actions, which is a tough row to hoe. I haven't read too many specific details of the shooting, but for instance, any steps he may have taken to avoid bystanders from stopping him could be construed as consciousness of guilt, or the fact that he had multiple indiscriminant targets would probably cut against the plea (as opposed, say, to just targeting a specific person, and not trying to get away or show awareness of any guilt, as if voices in his head had told him that congresswoman Giffords was Satan, and he'd done a good thing by shooting her).

Saying that someone is nuts and politicians' or media hosts' comments aren't at fault for their actions is a far cry from saying they have a viable insanity defense that absolves them of criminal responsibility.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
balducci
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Quote:
On 2011-01-24 19:22, landmark wrote:

Interestingly, Arizona has a guilty, but insane plea whereas the Federal law does not. He is now being charged under Federal law because of the shooting of Federal Judge Roll.

FWIW, just to mention in passing, I believe he was always going to be charged for that under Federal law as that particular shooting (of a Federal Judge) was a Federal offense. He will still be charged under State law for some of the other shootings. My understanding, based on what I read, was that he was charged with this Federal offense first because he had to be charged with SOMETHING within a certain number of days or else be released, and this Federal charge was viewed as one of the easiest charges on which to convict and / or set in motion.
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
MagicSanta
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I would say he knew he was up to no good when he did a farewell on his facebook or whatever it was.
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On 2011-01-24 17:06, MagicSanta wrote:

When my wife dies she is considered a hazard and they have to remove her defibulator before tossing her to the gators (that's how I'm sending her to her reward...gators).

Has your wife picked out a croc yet?
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
MagicSanta
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She doesn't know yet....and it will be gators. Crocs get enough press, time for a gator to take some time in the sun. When my mother in law died I wanted to either put her in a boat w/ gas and fire burning arrows at her in Lake Tahoe or tie her to a mustang and have her dragged into the desert...but enviromental concerns kept me from doing those. My brothers ashes were put into a dumpster.
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Santa, I almost wish I was related to you. I have no use for my body when I'm dead. Might as well have something interesting done with it.


Back to the topic, if the politicians and their rhetoric can be blamed for the actions of a nut, then no one can say anything. Look what Manson thought the Beatles were saying. You don't even need to actually say anything remotely "violent" for a crazy person to take it as "bad advice." And, unlike Manson, this guy never even said anything about what anyone else said.
What does that tell you about how much this is BS made up by everyone. They literally pulled the connection out of next to nothing.

How wonderful that they take a tragedy and take advantage of it to just attack eachother, and attack eachother over attacking eachother.
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
MagicSanta
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You need to read up on Manson.

This insanity thing is interesting. My godson plead insanity last month for his little attack on his highschool, which I found odd.
rockwall
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Quote:
On 2011-01-24 19:22, landmark wrote:
...
The argument that the right seems to be making in this case is that Loughner was so crazy that no external political discourse could have affected him, he was too crazy even for that.
...


I haven't seen that argument. What I've seen the right say is that there is NO evidence that political discourse had ANY effect on him as there is nothing in his statements, writings, etc. that shows he was listening to anyone on the right. They've also said that his obsession with Congresswoman Giffords pre-dated Sarah Palin coming onto the political scene. They HAVE said that it appears that his motivations seem to be based on delusion more than political discourse.

Of course they've also made the point, (valid in my opinion), that the left never has a problem with uncivil discourse when it pertains to them, only when it pertains to those on the right.

Finally, I'm not sure I buy into your point that those on the right never agree with the insanity plea either. Saying that is similar to when those on the left claim that the right doesn't want ANY regulation. Not true. We believe in regulation, just not over-regulation.

Mike
balducci
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Quote:
On 2011-01-24 18:53, landmark wrote:

Now that the right has conclusively agreed that Loughner is just a crazy mentally ill person, not influenced by any external violent discourse whatsoever, will they support the insanity defense for him? It will be interesting for me to find out, since most conservatives I know have in the past been against that kind of defense.

If they didn't support the insanity defense before, why would they support it now?
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
Woland
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Well, landmark, judging from the shooter's own materials, and by the accounts of his acquaintances and fellow students, if he was influenced by any external political discourse, it was the hate-filled political discourse (Bushhitler, GOP-Nazis, 911-inside job, ad infinitum & ad nauseam) coming from the left.

Woland
gdw
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On 2011-01-24 20:41, MagicSanta wrote:
You need to read up on Manson.

. . .


How so? Are you so intent on being contradictory to anything I say that you get lost with your assumptions?
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
MagicSanta
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Chuck Manson didn't believe that stuff...the idea is to get others to believe your gig so you can control 'em. Manson would have the family eat from a dumpster and say how the establishment was evil then he would take a car, change cloths, and go to dinner w/ 'the establishment'. He was a pimp who knew how to use mind control.
balducci
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On 2011-01-24 21:50, Woland wrote:

Well, landmark, judging from the shooter's own materials, and by the accounts of his acquaintances and fellow students, if he was influenced by any external political discourse, it was the hate-filled political discourse (Bushhitler, GOP-Nazis, 911-inside job, ad infinitum & ad nauseam) coming from the left.

Oh, good Lord, Woland ... how about Jared's right-wing federal reserve dollars are not money ideas, his pro-gold and silver talk, his language modeled after far-right anti-tax sovereign citizen David Wynn Miller, etcetera ... JL's hate-filled political discourse was peppered with elements from both the left and the right. Probably in about equal measure.
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
rockwall
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On 2011-01-24 22:27, balducci wrote:
Quote:
On 2011-01-24 21:50, Woland wrote:

Well, landmark, judging from the shooter's own materials, and by the accounts of his acquaintances and fellow students, if he was influenced by any external political discourse, it was the hate-filled political discourse (Bushhitler, GOP-Nazis, 911-inside job, ad infinitum & ad nauseam) coming from the left.

Oh, good Lord, Woland ... how about Jared's right-wing federal reserve dollars are not money ideas, his pro-gold and silver talk, his language modeled after far-right anti-tax sovereign citizen David Wynn Miller, etcetera ... JL's hate-filled political discourse was peppered with elements from both the left and the right. Probably in about equal measure.


"Probably in about equal measure."

Absolutely, very good. So why is it that all the talking heads only pointed to the political discourse on the right?
balducci
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On 2011-01-24 22:32, rockwall wrote:

"Probably in about equal measure."

Absolutely, very good. So why is it that all the talking heads only pointed to the political discourse on the right?

I suppose it depends what you read and watch. I would argue that blame has NOT only pointed to the political discourse on the right, based on what I've observed. Perhaps you need to read more articles at WND and FoxNEWS?
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
Destiny
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I vote left but I'm afraid if he didn't know it was wrong to put bullets in people and kill them, that would go against him, not for him, in my reckoning.

The parents need a public slapping too - when the chick gets it's feathers it's meant to be turfed out of the nest and learn to fend for itself. A little bit of harsh reality can be very good for snapping the overindulged out of their self delusion.
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Destiny, from my understanding, the parents are horrified. Gifford's husband has even offered to meet with them, saying something to the effect of "They must feel terrible," and he wanted to offer them some comfort.

MagicSanta, I'm sure the old gods would approve of that method of corpse disposal. Saw a video of a "sky burial" once- the tribe laid the body in the sun and let the vultures take it back; they even offered some assistance on the larger bones by using a heavy, sharp rock.
Self-proclaimed Jack-of-all-trades and google expert*.

* = Take any advice from this person with a grain of salt.
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