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landmark
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On 2011-01-24 21:50, Woland wrote:
Well, landmark, judging from the shooter's own materials, and by the accounts of his acquaintances and fellow students, if he was influenced by any external political discourse, it was the hate-filled political discourse (Bushhitler, GOP-Nazis, 911-inside job, ad infinitum & ad nauseam) coming from the left.

Woland


The shooter's reading list included Ayn Rand. I've referenced that at least twice here, and it's on the Internet, but you repeat the lie that his reading list is left wing, when what it clearly is, is anti-government. So, I must assume one of the the following:

1) You think Ayn Rand, too, is a leftist.

2) You were unaware of the fact because the news outlets you choose to attend to have deliberately not mentioned this easily available fact (Fox may have been too busy to notice in the last few weeks).

3) You are aware of it, but want to keep making your political point even though it is unsupported by the facts.
landmark
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On 2011-01-24 22:32, rockwall wrote:
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On 2011-01-24 22:27, balducci wrote:
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On 2011-01-24 21:50, Woland wrote:

Well, landmark, judging from the shooter's own materials, and by the accounts of his acquaintances and fellow students, if he was influenced by any external political discourse, it was the hate-filled political discourse (Bushhitler, GOP-Nazis, 911-inside job, ad infinitum & ad nauseam) coming from the left.

Oh, good Lord, Woland ... how about Jared's right-wing federal reserve dollars are not money ideas, his pro-gold and silver talk, his language modeled after far-right anti-tax sovereign citizen David Wynn Miller, etcetera ... JL's hate-filled political discourse was peppered with elements from both the left and the right. Probably in about equal measure.


"Probably in about equal measure."

Absolutely, very good. So why is it that all the talking heads only pointed to the political discourse on the right?


There is no equivalency in this matter between the right and the left. There is no one on the left with the power and audience of Beck, Limbaugh, Palin and others who have consistently and unapologetically combined violent political rhetoric with a call for guns in everybody's hands. If you think there is, I'd be curious to know who you think it is.
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The only thing you can count on is this guy costing the tax payers millions of dollars.

So not only did he devastate several famlies he is now going to waste your tax dollars.

Ask yourself:

Is he menatlly ill? Most likely.
Did he know what he was doing? Most likely.
Was it premediated? From all evidence so far gathered and reported. Most likely.
Will this drag on for years? Most likely.
Will something similar like this happen again? Most likely.
Will people talk about it and voice their opinions both for and aganist his death? Most likely.
Will all this turmoil and controversy solve anything? Most likely not.

Ask yourself also?
Can this guy ever be rehabilitated? Most likely not.
Should we house and feed him for the next 50 or 60 years or excute him? Whatever you answer is wrong, so don't bother answering.

Just some thoughts on this topic on a dreary cold Winter afternoon.
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
Magnus Eisengrim
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On 2011-01-25 12:01, acesover wrote:
The only thing you can count on is this guy costing the tax payers millions of dollars.

So not only did he devastate several famlies he is now going to waste your tax dollars.

Ask yourself:

Is he menatlly ill? Most likely.
Did he know what he was doing? Most likely.
Was it premediated? From all evidence so far gathered and reported. Most likely.
Will this drag on for years? Most likely.
Will something similar like this happen again? Most likely.
Will people talk about it and voice their opinions both for and aganist his death? Most likely.
Will all this turmoil and controversy solve anything? Most likely not.

Ask yourself also?
Can this guy ever be rehabilitated? Most likely not.
Should we house and feed him for the next 50 or 60 years or excute him? Whatever you answer is wrong, so don't bother answering.

Just some thoughts on this topic on a dreary cold Winter afternoon.


Unfortunately accurate...
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
Woland
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Well, landmark, that "reading list" to which you refer was taken from the shooter's YouTube page. In addition to Ayn Rand's "We the Living" (an odd choice - not one of her more well-known novels), it also included "The Communist Manifesto," the incoherent National-Socialist tract "Mein Kampf," "The Phantom Tollbooth," and "Peter Pan." It's not clear to me that he had read any of these books, or that he was in any way influenced by any of them. If the list means anything at all, it is probably in what Laura Miller has discerned:

Quote:
The sole ideological thread running through Loughner's list is an inchoate anti-authoritarianism. It's likely that what attracted him to "Mein Kampf" and "The Communist Manifesto" was less the political thinking in either book than their aura of the forbidden, the sensation that he was defying the adults around him by daring to read either one. The rest of his favorites -- "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest," "Brave New World," "Animal Farm" and "Fahrenheit 451" -- depict deceitful and oppressive regimes committed to squelching individual initiative and thought.

It's not hard to understand why Loughner might be drawn to such narratives. A young man whose slide into paranoid schizophrenia has been noticed and addressed (Loughner was suspended from Pima Community College and administrators insisted that he get a mental health evaluation before he would be allowed to return) probably would favor literature in which maverick truth-tellers are labeled as insane or criminal by self-serving authority figures.

By including Plato's "Republic" and "Meno" on his list of favorites, Loughner could imply, as many paranoids do, that by virtue of his superior intellect he was privy to hidden knowledge of how the world really works. Casting the delusional notions in his videos in the form of logical syllogisms ("If A.D.E. is endless in year, then the years in A.D.E don't cease. A.D.E is endless in year. Therefore the years in A.D.E. don't cease.") was surely also meant to insist that they were the product of rational thought, not insanity.

But Loughner is almost certainly insane and, like the countless other mentally disturbed people who send similar ravings to media outlets around the world, his ideas would have been ignored as incoherent and irrelevant if he hadn't fired a gun into a crowd of people Saturday. The fact that he did fire that gun, however, doesn't make his delusions suddenly meaningful. It doesn't make his list of favorite books significant. Crazy people who make headlines and change history are still crazy.

By studying Loughner's book list for clues to the political leanings that somehow "drove" him to commit murder, commentators are behaving a lot like crazy people themselves. Paranoids are prone to scouring newspaper articles and the monologues of late-night comedians for imaginary coded messages that confirm their "secret knowledge" about the world. But those coded messages aren't there -- it's just random stuff with no special significance. The truth about mental illness is that it strikes without regard to political affiliation or ideological orientation, and it turns beautiful minds into nonsense factories. We can debate a social order that allows its victims access to firearms and talk about finding better ways to intervene before the minority of mentally disturbed individuals with violent impulses are able to act on those impulses. But trying to find the cause for this disease in politics, ideas or books is just plain nuts.


It was leftists who ginned up this "issue" in order to bludgeon conservatives into silence and slander Governor Palin, and it is lefists in the "mainstream" media who continue to try to push this issue. This is a game plan that leftists have employed before to bully their opposition into silence. Leftists are trying to use the Tucson shooting just as Stalin used the assassination of Sergey Kirov, or as the Fuehrer used the assassination of Ernst vom Rath. At the moment it appears that the left has misjudged the true extent of its strength. Perhaps after the administration uses "net neutrality" rules to neutralize the internet, the mass media will be able to dominate with Newspeak unchallenged.

Woland
landmark
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On 2011-01-24 19:37, LobowolfXXX wrote:
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On 2011-01-24 19:22, landmark wrote:
"Most mental illnesses don't negate criminal liability."


The argument that the right seems to be making in this case is that Loughner was so crazy that no external political discourse could have affected him, he was too crazy even for that. I think the right will find themselves in a dilemma, since those against insanity defenses will either have to say this is a special case or give up their political get out of jail free card when it comes to provocative rhetoric.



I disagree. If I tell you to go jump off a bridge, and you do it, then 1) you're probably crazy, and 2) I'm not responsible for your actions. . .


Perhaps legally not, but if your intention was not metaphorical and you provided the location of the best bridge, you would have to bear some of the responsibility. Not that any of the right wing talk show hosts or TV stars would purposely want to see any violence done. I suppose like Henry VIII they have plausible deniability.
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Perhaps after the administration uses "net neutrality" rules to neutralize the internet, the mass media will be able to dominate with Newspeak unchallenged.

Woland

As a conservative, shouldn't you be against net neutrality laws? Shouldn't ATT be allowed to charge whatever they want to whomever they want for whatever product they wish to offer, by your philosophy? I'll tell you if that goes through then we're really done for here.

I'm hoping you're using "net neutrality" in quotes as you think the proposed FCC regs are not neutral at all. If so, I agree with you on that. I think they're a big giveaway to private enterprise--who will soon be determining what sites we're allowed to see or not see.
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Sounds right to me....
landmark
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Woland,

I've read the Laura Miller piece and disagree with her. Book choices, unless they fall out of the sky, are never random. They indicate something about the reader. In fact, as she said, and as I indicated in my previous post, they indicate a general anti-authoritarian bent. No one is saying that reading the books caused his disease--her comment is a total straw man. What we are looking at is what kind of thoughts were running around in his head, what might his state of mind have been. But again, it wasn't leftists who brought up the book list, it was Fox News and WND, who refered to it very selectively, leaving out the Ayn Rand book.

And as for your continued insistence that the Nazis were left wingers (George Lincoln Rockwell must be spinning in his grave), I'm sure you recall the story sometimes attributed to Lincoln: "If you call a sheep's tail a leg, how many legs would it have? "Five." 'No, only four, calling the tail a leg doesn't make it one."
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We shouldn't execute him
Nobody expects the spanish inquisition!!!!!



"History will be kind to me, as I intend to write it"- Sir Winston Churchill
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On 2011-01-25 15:55, Woland wrote:
It was leftists who ginned up this "issue" in order to bludgeon conservatives into silence and slander Governor Palin, and it is lefists in the "mainstream" media who continue to try to push this issue. This is a game plan that leftists have employed before to bully their opposition into silence. Leftists are trying to use the Tucson shooting just as Stalin used the assassination of Sergey Kirov, or as the Fuehrer used the assassination of Ernst vom Rath. At the moment it appears that the left has misjudged the true extent of its strength. Perhaps after the administration uses "net neutrality" rules to neutralize the internet, the mass media will be able to dominate with Newspeak unchallenged.

Woland

Hey, balducci? Did I miss the last meeting? Nobody clued me in on this latest plan. Maybe Payne's just late with the Left Wing Conspiracy Newsletter again. Smile

Woland, did you forget your tin foil hat, or have you been listening to Glenn Beck again? Smile
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It was a dog's tail when I heard it.

W.
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On 2011-01-25 16:48, EsnRedshirt wrote:
...
Hey, balducci? Did I miss the last meeting? Nobody clued me in on this latest plan. Maybe Payne's just late with the Left Wing Conspiracy Newsletter again. Smile
...


It must have got lost in the mail along with the Right Wing Conspiracy Newsletter.
MagicSanta
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Woland brings up accurate historical points.
landmark
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On 2011-01-25 17:00, Woland wrote:
It was a dog's tail when I heard it.

W.

Interestingly I've found references to dog's tail, sheep's tail and pig's tail. It was evidently a well-known story in Lincoln's era. He probably did say something like it, though he probably didn't originate it.
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He was probably quoting a story about someone else when he told it. But the story makes a very good point. And no matter how often communist agitprop labels the "National-Socialist German Workers' Party" was right wing, that won't make it so. I have listed, and the sources to which I have linked have provided even more details, the ways in which the National-Socialist program was explicitly anti-capitalist and anti-free-market, and the ways in which life in the Third Reich resembled life in the Soviet Union. Your counter-examples are unconvincing.

Woland
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Woland- left, right, socialist, fascist, communist, etc. Labels don't matter. The extremes at either end all amount to nothing less than slavery. Does it really matter if the master is the Government or the Corporation?
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Well there is the whole thing about Hitler making a concentrated effort to remove all actual communists from Germany immediately after siezing power, but we wouldn't want to confuse things by throwing facts into this.
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
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Stop being mean to Woland - he's still in grieving for Joe McCarthy.
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