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Woland
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"Nobody really wants total socialism."

???

Are you sure about that.

More than one hundred million people were murdered in the XXth century by people who really wanted total socialism. It's still around today.

But no, I do not believe in anarchy, or in an entirely unregulated free market.

W.
landmark
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Lobo--You describe Soul Man and then seem to draw no conclusion. The point is exactly that of false choices.

Woland, the surplus value doesn't go to Beria or the boss, it goes to the workers in the plant who collectively own it.
Woland
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But, landmark, the "value" of a product has nothing to do with the labor or even the raw materials that go into it. The "value" of a product is whatever the market is willing to trade for it. Marx's "labor theory of value" is specious.

Even stipulating for the purpose of this discussion that there is such a thing as the "value" of the labor that the workers put into a product, in no socialist economy that has ever been established on this planet from the beginning of known history until the present time, has that value ever belonged to or ended up with the workingman. It alsways ends up with the ruling bureaucracy, be they imperial, monarchical, or the Party.

W.
EsnRedshirt
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Quote:
On 2011-01-27 14:15, Woland wrote:
"Nobody really wants total socialism."

???

Are you sure about that.

More than one hundred million people were murdered in the XXth century by people who really wanted total socialism. It's still around today.

But no, I do not believe in anarchy, or in an entirely unregulated free market.

W.

Okay, fine- nobody you're arguing with on this forum right now really wants total socialism.
And then we're right back to discussing ideals and extremes instead of feasible solutions.
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Woland
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Well, EsnRedShirt, I have been defending the most feasible solution of all, all this time.

The free market is the most feasible and efrfective way of organizing economic activity -- allowing individuals to organize their own activity themselves.

Individuals making their own choices for their own reasons have powered more economic growth than any team of even the most high-powered, impressively-credentialled, governmentally empowered central planning bureaucrats ever assembled anywhere at at any time in known history.

W.
EsnRedshirt
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Self-proclaimed Jack-of-all-trades and google expert*.

* = Take any advice from this person with a grain of salt.
LobowolfXXX
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On 2011-01-27 14:18, landmark wrote:
Lobo--You describe Soul Man and then seem to draw no conclusion. The point is exactly that of false choices.



I thought my conclusion was clear (Don't we always, I guess?); the fact that Howell's character did have a choice meant that in no way was his situation analogous to "being black," regardless of the hardships and slights that he endured.

Similarly, the fact that employment with a given company is voluntary means that it's not "slavery" or "theft" or any other word that implies a non-consensual dealing.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
acesover
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On 2011-01-27 16:34, EsnRedshirt wrote:
Image



Master of deception. He is switching decks with his right hand as he touches his face. Fantastic misdirection. Or he just finished reading this thread and wonders what happened to Gifford..
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
Magnus Eisengrim
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On 2011-01-27 16:52, acesover wrote:
Or he just finished reading this thread and wonders what happened to Gifford..


The great tragedy of this thread: I misspelled "Giffords" in the OP.

Get well Congresswoman Giffords.

John
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
Woland
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Not a tragedy, Magnus, your title was well understood!

And less than 3 weeks after the shooting, and a second trip to the ICU for a shunt, Representative Giffords is now in rehab. Tell me again what's wrong with American medical care?

W.
balducci
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On 2011-01-27 17:52, Woland wrote:

And less than 3 weeks after the shooting, and a second trip to the ICU for a shunt, Representative Giffords is now in rehab. Tell me again what's wrong with American medical care?

Lol. You really want to go there? Seriously, nothing is wrong with the level of medical expertise. The problems mostly have to do with the cost and patchwork coverage.

I'm sure Giffords can afford her health care and the medical bills. Her government benefits might even cover it all. The other shooting victims, sadly, probably face medical bills of several (possibly 10s of) thousands of dollars each. This is above whatever their insurance might pay.

This is an interesting story from FoxNEWS on the subject:

Tucson Illustrates High Medical Cost of ...... Victims
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
gdw
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On 2011-01-27 17:52, Woland wrote:
Not a tragedy, Magnus, your title was well understood!

And less than 3 weeks after the shooting, and a second trip to the ICU for a shunt, Representative Giffords is now in rehab. Tell me again what's wrong with American medical care?

W.


It's over regulated Smile

Seriously though, when I say I don't want regulations, that doesn't mean I don't want, or think that there wouldn't be, standards. That is, a free market is self regulated. It is regulated by the individuals making the choices of what they do and do not want to voluntarily involve themselves with.
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
critter
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On 2011-01-27 18:05, gdw wrote:
Quote:
On 2011-01-27 17:52, Woland wrote:
Not a tragedy, Magnus, your title was well understood!

And less than 3 weeks after the shooting, and a second trip to the ICU for a shunt, Representative Giffords is now in rehab. Tell me again what's wrong with American medical care?

W.


It's over regulated Smile

Seriously though, when I say I don't want regulations, that doesn't mean I don't want, or think that there wouldn't be, standards. That is, a free market is self regulated. It is regulated by the individuals making the choices of what they do and do not want to voluntarily involve themselves with.


As long as they do not anger the corporations, because then they would be shot by high paid security guards. Since there's no one to punish those security guards or corporations, what with there being no public entity to do so in the new Utopia. Or is it Anarcopia?
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers
gdw
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On 2011-01-27 18:19, critter wrote:
Quote:
On 2011-01-27 18:05, gdw wrote:
Quote:
On 2011-01-27 17:52, Woland wrote:
Not a tragedy, Magnus, your title was well understood!

And less than 3 weeks after the shooting, and a second trip to the ICU for a shunt, Representative Giffords is now in rehab. Tell me again what's wrong with American medical care?

W.


It's over regulated Smile

Seriously though, when I say I don't want regulations, that doesn't mean I don't want, or think that there wouldn't be, standards. That is, a free market is self regulated. It is regulated by the individuals making the choices of what they do and do not want to voluntarily involve themselves with.


As long as they do not anger the corporations, because then they would be shot by high paid security guards. Since there's no one to punish those security guards or corporations, what with there being no public entity to do so in the new Utopia. Or is it Anarcopia?


:rolleyes:

Where do you get this idea?
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
critter
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From when we were discussing crime and you said that folks could hire their own security in a cop free world. Like Blackwater.
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
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Destiny
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Gdw said:
"It's over regulated

Seriously though, when I say I don't want regulations, that doesn't mean I don't want, or think that there wouldn't be, standards. That is, a free market is self regulated. It is regulated by the individuals making the choices of what they do and do not want to voluntarily involve themselves with."

Now I understand how your system works. I decide I want to be a gunshot trauma doctor. As there is no government or regulations to stand in my way or insist on training and qualification, I read a book on the matter - a book which may or may not be factual because there is noone to regulate that, but I'm not concerned because I know if the book contains errors, word will get out and it will stop selling (or more acurately, being bartered, with no government to authorise or back a currency.)

I find a boarded up shop in a mall in Tucson and as it is not being put to good use, I open a surgery. Later that day Ms Gifford, a lady advocating for a Congress on the corner, is shot by a nut who is happy without government, regulation or currency. He uses a bazooka because there is no law to confine him to a Glock.

Ms Gifford is rushed into my surgery but dies, not because of my admitted lack of qualification or ability but because the brain surgery drill I bartered for earlier in the day needs a different voltage than that connected to the shop - there is no body authorised to regulate such things. The surgery is full of media people - there's no police to keep them out - I laugh with them how the drill reminds me of when I bought Beta instead of VHS years ago.

Word gets out of my failure and in a self regulating market I can get no work because people know I am a useless brain surgeon - I move to New York and make my fortune as a beautician injecting workshop silicone into the faces of aging women. There isn't any repeat business - customers either die or are too disfigured to barter a living, but luckily there's a sucker born every minute.
critter
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Ha! Beta! Now that's gangsta!
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers
gdw
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Your caricatures are about as accurate as saying america's system is the equivalent of the two wolves and a sheep analogy.
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
critter
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She just keepin' it rizzle.
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers
Destiny
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Gdw,

I may have exaggerated for effect but I personally can't see how else your proposed Utopia would function, and please don't tell me I should read your links - if a system is so complex you can't explain the basics to me in a couple of paragraphs, I cannot take your support of the system seriously and have to suspect you are just throwing out a line hoping for a nibble. I am also aware that there are some people who are unable to accept any authority whatsoever in their lives and yet others who just like to be different, with no regard to practicality.

I really fail to understand what is so bad about the system we in the 'western democracies' have. To my way of thinking we are the healthiest, wealthiest, best informed, most free people to have ever been on the planet. Much as is wrong with our governments, there's an awful lot right. I think it is our job to think about and work on what we see as wrong, not reinvent the wheel. But then again I am sure you will have a link to show me what a burden the wheel is on your liberties...
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