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balducci
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Quote:
On 2011-02-03 20:02, gdw wrote:

Balducci, it affects those that chose to be involved, and thus they are also parties doing business.

Business decisions involve and affect MANY MORE than those who choose to be involved.

Where were you during the financial meltdown? Or perhaps you have not heard of that?
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
MagicSanta
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That open air burning might be a native thing. Too late anyway, the old evil witch was buried in a cardboard coffin, which I still get grief for. Note: my mother was buried in the same model of box because it was deemed pretty and velvety and we decided not to spend a fortute on a coffin.
gdw
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Quote:
On 2011-02-03 20:59, balducci wrote:
Quote:
On 2011-02-03 20:02, gdw wrote:

Balducci, it affects those that chose to be involved, and thus they are also parties doing business.

Business decisions involve and affect MANY MORE than those who choose to be involved.

Where were you during the financial meltdown? Or perhaps you have not heard of that?


Oh, you mean when government muddled around by backing loans, with money they took from "tax" payers, causing the housing bubble in the first place? And then they bailed out a bunch of big businesses, again using your money? Yeah, that wasn't something people weren't forced into. That was ALL just individuals choosing, voluntarily, to do business, and deciding what to do with their own money.

This is my point.
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
balducci
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Quote:
On 2011-02-03 21:10, gdw wrote:
Quote:
On 2011-02-03 20:59, balducci wrote:
Quote:
On 2011-02-03 20:02, gdw wrote:

Balducci, it affects those that chose to be involved, and thus they are also parties doing business.

Business decisions involve and affect MANY MORE than those who choose to be involved.

Where were you during the financial meltdown? Or perhaps you have not heard of that?


Oh, you mean when government muddled around by backing loans, with money they took from "tax" payers, causing the housing bubble in the first place? And then they bailed out a bunch of big businesses, again using your money? Yeah, that wasn't something people weren't forced into. That was ALL just individuals choosing, voluntarily, to do business, and deciding what to do with their own money.

This is my point.

No, that's not what I mean. It might be your point, but you missed mine.
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
gdw
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No, I knew exactly what you were trying to point out, yet the financial crisis does nothing but show how government intervention is what makes it affect everyone else, compounded by the fact that they directly involve you via your tax money, whether you wish or not, which would be exactly the opposite of what I am advocating.

This is the same as trying to say what two people wish to do privately affects everyone, by saying that allowing gays top marry means they will be receiving benefits that they would not otherwise be receiving, and showing how this affects others.

It would not affect others if it wasn't the government being involved, as they force you to be involved.
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
Destiny
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Gdw,

I thought I was being clear but if you need titles, I am a capitalist who leans left on some issues and right on others, though more frequently left. The United States appears more right leaning than most of the western democracies, and I think I would be, as most people, somewhere in the middle of opinion in the western democracies minus the US. That is not meant to disparage the US - as I said earlier I believe in this system of governance and economic management with all it's variations and imperfections.

I believe the job of government, in the main, is not to provide goods and services but to regulate them, based on a community consensus. That community consensus is achieved through a vote of the representatives we vote into parliament. There are plenty of exceptions I am willing to accept though. I think I've posted before about the Australian Government decades ago building sugar mills in isolated areas where noone else would and then selling them back over time at cost to cooperatives of sugar farmers - something which benefitted all involved and the country as a whole.

I believe the government has no place in the private consensual sexual activity of two adults but must regulate to ensure such behaviour IS consensual so that a weaker partner is indeed consenting, not just caving in to fear - and I believe the government should regulate a punishment for inappropriate behaviour in those cases, and that the government is best placed to enforce that punishment.

I also belive the government has a right to regulate so that members of society may not injure others through omitting to tell others something they would not necessarily know, which could injure them. Examples are that people with sexual diseases or HIV should be required to disclose that to sexual partners and only indulge in sexual activity which will not spread the infection. Companies that sell us a financial product should be regulated to explain all the conditions and ramifications of that product.

I believe if you drive a car on your farm you can drive it as fast as you like, without a seatbelt, and drunk as a skunk if you choose - though if that behaviour injures another or their property the government should have in place severe repercussions. Once you move onto public roads, provided by the community, for the community, I believe the government should be able to regulate how fast you drive, the road worthiness of the vehicle you drive and what condition you drive in.

I hope you get an idea of my beliefs from my general description and the specific examples I've given - if there is any other specific you would like me to share my beliefs about just ask, though I note when I have asked you about how specific areas would operate under an anarchic system, you have fobbed me off with links or a declaration that you were not across the detail and I could look it up.
MagicSanta
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It is amazing how Destiny and I are alike. There is one major difference between us of course....he isn't afraid of poisoness snakes and I am.
gdw
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Thank you for expanding on that Destiny.
I want to say that, beside the points you were specific on, I would still have no idea where you would stand on pretty much any issue.
This is not to criticize your response, but to say that it would lead to a near endless stream of questions if I were to try to understand how you think everything should work.

For example, how is everyone supposed to be fed?

Asking me to explain how everything would work without a government is like asking someone to explained every detail of how things will work when/if we move away from oil and coal for energy.
Even if one knew what resource we would be dependant on, they could not predict every aspect of how it will be obtained, processed, transported, how each person would get it, etc.
That doesn't mean it wouldn't work. It just means that people will figure that out, and would decide for them selves via the market.

The main issue people pushed me to answer was policing. Why not health care, or food? Because most have not become dependant on the government for those things.
So, police, well just look at egypt now. People have been grouping together and defending themselves their neighbours.
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
balducci
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On 2011-02-04 11:43, gdw wrote:

The main issue people pushed me to answer was policing. Why not health care, or food? Because most have not become dependant on the government for those things.

Huh?

People are dependent on the government with respect to their health care. Even in the United States (even pre-Obama FWIW), public spending accounts for between about 45% and 56.1% of U.S. health care spending (depending on how you count it). People with private health care plans still depend on public spending for some of their health care, whether they realize it or not.

People are also dependent on government bodies to regulate and monitor various aspects of the food production and distribution.

The vast majority of people are generally satisfied with, and often even pleased with and thankful for, this.
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
landmark
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Quote:

On 2011-02-04 11:43, gdw wrote
Thank you for expanding on that Destiny.
I want to say that, beside the points you were specific on, I would still have no idea where you would stand on pretty much any issue.
This is not to criticize your response, but to say that it would lead to a near endless stream of questions if I were to try to understand how you think everything should work.

I suspect that most people don't have a fully thought out overarching philosophy of life or politics that they think should be applied to all situations. "It depends," or "I don't know," seems perfectly legitimate and probably necessary for an evolving, learning human being facing an evolving society. Given that, it seems pretty clear to me the general direction Destiny is pointing. But I think life is an art, not a science.
critter
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On 2011-02-04 13:29, landmark wrote:
But I think life is an art, not a science.


Much like taxidermy in that respect.
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers
landmark
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Yes, exactly like taxidermy. To me life is just like stuffing a big old dead moose.
Destiny
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Balducci said exactly what I would have said regarding healthcare and food.

Here in Australia - remembering this country covers vast distances with sparse populations - our governments of all political persuasions have always been very proactive building transport networks so producers can get their goods to markets - rail, road, sea and air. The seaports and airports they built are basically all privatised now and the sell off to private enterprise of cargo rail has begun - but it is unlikely we would have ever had those facilities without government - we had no companies with the resources or inclination to undertake the tasks.

I really think it is useless discussing the specifics when gdw and I start from diametrically opposed positions. I believe I am part of the government by virtue of participating in public discussion and the political process. He appears to see the government as the enemy, an ever present brooding menacing threat to his petty freedoms. I do not believe we start from a point of freedom. Left to our own devices without a system that most of us are willing to abide by we would have to fight just to keep our house - if we went on holiday, we may well return to find some hobo has opened a bar in it with gdw's blessing because as we'd left the house empty for a week, it was regarded as 'finders keepers'. We would have to physically fight to regain the place and hold it. Our crops would need to be guarded against people who saw no reason not to help themselves and when we sold the crop we would only sell it to someone who had the gold then and there as there would be no recourse if they failed to honour their debt.

gdw seems to see freedom as a given - I see it as something generation after generation has fought and died for, and that we lucky ***s have inherited. The system of government we have is how they managed to secure and guarantee those freedoms. I do not mind being compelled by community consensus to wait for a green light before I cross a street. Of course consensus gets some things wrong - and it is our job to work on those things. I for example believe consenting adults should be able to do what they like in privacy, but it takes government to ensure that is the case, because for centuries there were (and there remain) those who would kill people for that. It took government a long time to get there, but eventually they did - without government I cannot picture any process which would have achieved that freedom - because it was an all prevailing majority view that homosexuality was wrong and it took progressive politicians to go ahead of the majority view and get us where we are now.

"Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose..." Kriss Kristofferson

And if I can quote from my favourite Christian of all time, Kahlil Gibran:



At the city gate and by your fireside I have seen you prostrate yourself and worship your own freedom,


Even as slaves humble themselves before a tyrant and praise him though he slays them.


Ay, in the grove of the temple and in the shadow of the citadel I have seen the freest among you
wear their freedom as a yoke and a handcuff.


And my heart bled within me; for you can only be free
when even the desire of seeking freedom becomes a harness to you,
and when you cease to speak of freedom as a goal and a fulfillment.


You shall be free indeed when your days are not without a care
nor your nights without a want and a grief,


But rather when these things girdle your life and yet you rise above them
naked and unbound.


And how shall you rise beyond your days and nights unless you break the chains
which you at the dawn of your understanding have fastened around your noon hour?


In truth that which you call freedom is the strongest of these chains,
though its links glitter in the sun and dazzle the eyes.


And what is it but fragments of your own self you would discard that you may become free?


If it is an unjust law you would abolish,
that law was written with your own hand upon your own forehead.


You cannot erase it by burning your law books nor by washing the foreheads of your judges,
though you pour the sea upon them.


And if it is a despot you would dethrone,
see first that his throne erected within you is destroyed.


For how can a tyrant rule the free and the proud,
but for a tyranny in their own freedom and a shame in their won pride?


And if it is a care you would cast off,
that care has been chosen by you rather than imposed upon you
gdw
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Destiny, people have had to fight to obtain their freedom, yes, but only because it was taken in the first place.
Now, let's look at history and see who was doing the taking in the first place?

Also, as for your history of getting homosexuality more accepted, seriously? First off, it used to be plenty accepted in the original republic. Not that I advocate for a republic.

Then christianity became much more popular.

As for government being what got that freedom back, seriously? It took and is continuing to take people fighting against government to accomplish this. For some reason they seem to think they need to work within government, you know, the system that had and enforced the laws against homosexuality, to accomplish this.
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
Destiny
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"Also, as for your history of getting homosexuality more accepted, seriously? First off, it used to be plenty accepted in the original republic"

Much as I believe the Greeks and Romans had a profound effect on our present day lives - there have been many societies beyond their's.

And the acceptance you speak of was very limited - I doubt we want to take the Greek glorification of the passion for a beardless boy as an example of tolerance of homosexuality - that is pederasty.

In Rome it was acceptable for the slave to drop to his knees, but not the Roman - that is sexual abuse, or if the slave was happy - prostitution.

I did not say governments got our freedoms back - I said we had no freedom before government - our lives were consumed with fighting for things government has now enabled us to take for granted.
gdw
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Quote:
On 2011-02-04 22:00, Destiny wrote:
"Also, as for your history of getting homosexuality more accepted, seriously? First off, it used to be plenty accepted in the original republic"

Much as I believe the Greeks and Romans had a profound effect on our present day lives - there have been many societies beyond their's.

And the acceptance you speak of was very limited - I doubt we want to take the Greek glorification of the passion for a beardless boy as an example of tolerance of homosexuality - that is pederasty.

In Rome it was acceptable for the slave to drop to his knees, but not the Roman - that is sexual abuse, or if the slave was happy - prostitution.

I did not say governments got our freedoms back - I said we had no freedom before government - our lives were consumed with fighting for things government has now enabled us to take for granted.


All things previously repressed by, surprise surprise, government.

As for Rome, emperor Nero was married to a man.
The fact that they also had sexual abuse is irrelevant to whether homosexuality was accepted.
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
MagicSanta
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GDW. Enough BS from you. I think Destiny is correct, you just want to argue....or I am correct and you are seriously off mentally. So in a paragraph explain what your prefered world would be like as it relates to government, the police, and regulations concerning corporations. It seems no one here, from what I can see, can figure out your desires based on your arguments that all your posts are misunderstood. So no more nonsense, no more back peddling...prove me wrong when I say you are a dillussional person of low intelligence w/ a thesaurus. If you need a specific questions let me know and try to focus on Canada since that is your country and thus the only one you need to worry about changing. Remember, try to limit it to a paragraph.
gdw
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How about two sentences, Santa?

I would be happy if government stuck to just protecting peoples life, property, and rights. I would be even happier if that "government" was voluntarily funded, and allowed competition for those "services".
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
MagicSanta
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Gee, that is clear as mud. Is your main thing that you are anti tax but pro what you get from paying them?
RS1963
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I wish I could be king of the world for just one day. Then maybe gdw would be happy that things are the way they are now. Of course everyone else would sadly have to see what a tyrant I would be but it would only be for one day lol.
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