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MagicSanta
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Eat the rich.
Scott Cram
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Workers unionize to protect themselves from their employers. For example:

Auto workers organize to protect themselves from auto companies.

Delivery workers organize to protect themselves from delivery companies.

Wisconsin government workers organize to protect themselves from the people of Wisconsin.

Image


Of course this is what democracy looks like. That's precisely the reason the founding fathers designed the country as a constitutional representative republic.
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On 2011-02-18 22:09, gdw wrote:
Not that I am, in any way, defending what was done, but how is not taking money via taxes "giving" money to the rich?


This is because liberals and government seem to think that all money is theirs, and what they let you keep is a GIFT from a nice government. A tax cut is simply LETTING YOU KEEP YOUR OWN MONEY! But that does not work for sound bites, and does not get the base riled up now does it? So we need to use class warfare (which is all this position you point out is) and then say "oh we need civil debate". Seems as if an "H" word applies.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
HerbLarry
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Quote:
Wisconsin government workers organize to protect themselves from the people of Wisconsin.



The people of Wisconsin are the government of Wisconsin, as in "We the people..."
You know why don't act naive.
EsnRedshirt
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Scott, collective bargaining has been a right of the people for years. What the media is not mentioning is that a) the unions had already made a lot of concessions, and b) there was a surplus in the state budget until the governor gave it all away to special interests to "manufacture" the "crisis". He then immediately tried to do away with collective bargaining rights, which, in and of itself, will save the state absolutely nothing. It will, however, enable them to cut benefits and salaries without hearing a single complaint from the workers. And given the current employment market, they'll keep working because the alternative is lengthy unemployment.

GDW, Danny, I think the problem is that some people equate taxes with theft. By the way, how do you reconcile increasing tax cuts with reducing the deficit? If I'm paying off my mortgage, and I decide to only budget $100 a month for the payment instead of $200 a month, I've more than doubled the amount of time it'll take to pay it off (because of interest.)
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Dannydoyle
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Equating taxes with your home budget shows how little of economics you know. There is no point, you have an idea of what you think your answer will be, you have your talking points and I am not even going to try. You will hate anything republican put forth and stick to your Keynesian economic theory because it fits the rest of your theories. Never mind how much harm it does, no no no not important you believe it LOL.

The economics of taxes is far more complicated than your over simplification of your mortgage example. The comparison is apples and hand grenades. If that is your level of understanding of economic theory, seriously no answer will help you. For whatever reason you also choose to way oversimplify the Wisconsin situation, and apply the class warfare method of arguement. I think the problem is that you want simple answers to VERY complex problems.

Let me ask you something, though I know the answer. Should the teachers union be allowed to contribute to campaigns? Let alone so heavily to one side?
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
EsnRedshirt
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Danny- as long as corporations can contribute, unions should be able to contribute as well. If you want to stop corporations from making political contributions, I see no problems with stopping unions from making donations, either.

I know there's no simple answers. I'm just tired of unions always getting a bad rap here. The second anyone mentions corporations in a negative light, though, we get people jumping down our throats.
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rockwall
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Quote:
On 2011-02-19 11:23, EsnRedshirt wrote:
...
What the media is not mentioning is that a) the unions had already made a lot of concessions, and b) there was a surplus in the state budget until the governor gave it all away to special interests to "manufacture" the "crisis".
...


Tried to do a little research. The only place I can find this claim is from the union sites and quote from Richard Trumpka. I find that pretty suspect. Maybe that's why the media isn't mentioning it.
I did however find this article, http://www.examiner.com/political-buzz-in-madison/wi-gov-elect-scott-walker-to-inherit-projected-3-3-billion-budget-deficit, which states that Walker was inheriting a projected 3.3 billion dollar deficit.

Quote:
...
He then immediately tried to do away with collective bargaining rights, which, in and of itself, will save the state absolutely nothing. It will, however, enable them to cut benefits and salaries without hearing a single complaint from the workers.


Of course these two sentences completely contradict themselves.
HerbLarry
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Unions exist for weak minded people who can't figure out they don't have to live or work in a specific location. They are afraid of freedom. Don't like the job or the pay? Get another gig! Don't like where you live? Move!
You know why don't act naive.
critter
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"From the labor movement; The folks who brought you the weekend."
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers
MagicSanta
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Simple, the unions refuse to accept the reality of the situation as everyone else has had to that doesn't have the same 'protections'. They need to lay off a lot of them until they reach the number they needed, and of course kick them out of the union because they are no longer employed, and then they newly unemployed can sit at home proud that they stood up for their rights. Then the former teachers can tell their new coworkers at Walmart about how they struggled by on $52000 a year, working nine months of it, with a great retirement, and how they managed to educated those kids right into the 44th worse schools in the country and how they were getting screwed.
Woland
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Rockwall,

You are correct about the false story that Wisconsin was heading for a budget surplus. It helps to check local sources. According to the Wisconsin Journal Senti......lwaukee:

Quote:
Liberal MSNBC talk show host Rachel Maddow joined in Feb. 17, accusing Walker of manipulating the situation for political gain.

"Despite what you may have heard about Wisconsin’s finances, the state is on track to have a budget surplus this year," she said. "I am not kidding."

She added a kicker that is also making the rounds: Walker and fellow Republicans in the Legislature this year gave away $140 million in business tax breaks -- so if there is a deficit projected of $137 million, they created it.

Maddow and others making the claim all cite the same source for their information -- a Jan. 31, 2011 memo prepared by Robert Lang, the director of the nonpartisan Legislative Fiscal Bureau.

It includes this line: "Our analysis indicates a general fund gross balance of $121.4 million and a net balance of $56.4 million."

We were curious about claims of a surplus based on the fiscal bureau memo.

In writing it when it was released, reporters from the Journal Sentinel and Associated Press had put the shortfall at between $78 million and $340 million. That’s the projection for the end of the fiscal year, June 30, 2011.

Walker himself has settled on $137 million as the deficit figure, a number reporters have adopted as shorthand.

We re-read the fiscal bureau memo, talked to Lang, consulted reporter Jason Stein of the Journal Sentinel’s Madison Bureau, read various news accounts and examined the issue in detail.

Our conclusion: Maddow and the others are wrong.

There is, indeed, a projected deficit that required attention, and Walker and GOP lawmakers did not create it.

More on that second point in a bit.

The confusion, it appears, stems from a section in Lang’s memo that -- read on its own -- does project a $121 million surplus in the state’s general fund as of June 30, 2011.

But the remainder of the routine memo -- consider it the fine print -- outlines $258 million in unpaid bills or expected shortfalls in programs such as Medicaid services for the needy ($174 million alone), the public defender’s office and corrections. Additionally, the state owes Minnesota $58.7 million under a discontinued tax reciprocity deal.

The result, by our math and Lang’s, is the $137 million shortfall.

It would be closer to the $340 million figure if the figure included the $200 million owed to the state’s patient compensation fund, a debt courts have declared resulted from an illegal raid on the fund under former Gov. Jim Doyle.


Woland
Dannydoyle
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How can you get good class warfare going with facts?
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
MagicSanta
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They need to be understandable of the economy. Here in Nevada they were having black fridays, meaning that they would close, say, unemployment, on a Friday, and not be paid (they can use vacation of course) as a cost reduction. The new gov said that it was resulting in a loss of productivity which wasn't serving any purpose (he was right) and so he did a pay reduction for the rank and file and significant pay cut for some very over paid employees at director level. This made perfect sense considering the budgetary problems the state has. I spoke with someone at unemployment and he was a bit ticked until I told him that it is very common for companies to do pay freezes, cuts, and lay offs etc.. In fact over 20 years I had three 10% pay cuts. The alternative is to start reducing head count and I asked the guy point blank, 'would you rather be jobless right now'? He decided he could live with the pay cuts.

The protesters are fools and want to cut their own throats and if I was in charge of the state I'd cut them. You living in Wisconsin and making over 50k a year teaching, a field only a raging idiot would go into with the intention of making lots of money, and the changes they want to make still put you ahead of the general popoulation OR lose everything I'd use my noggin and take the cut.

There needs to be an overhaul of many areas that are bleeding states and cities dry (and the feds). I saw a report that the NY transit has almost 100% of it's retirees retired due to injury and thus collecting full retirement and benefits for decades longer than expected after putting far less into the coffers. Medicare fraud is rampant, my wifes arthritis doctor closed her practice w/out notice, just closed the week after Christmas. She is on medicare and the closest doctor who will accept her is an hour away and can't see her for months. The augmented insurance company pulled out of the country so medical cost for us went through the roof and I actually applied for food stamps because I'm paying close to $600 a month for prescriptions now (thank you uncle Obama!) out of pocket a lot of which is due to the fraud. Basically I have a choice weekly, medications, electricity, gas, or food. Now the people I spoke with at the shelter, the ones with multiple family members registered with the food bank to quadruple the amount of food they get, who also smoke, and talk on cell phones, and have rolls of cash on them, who get unemployment and welfare and WDC and foodstamps who run their own side businesses selling pot or working under the table and have never really worked a real job told me that if I applied with our income and output on meds and heating cost etc we might get around $300 a month because everyone there got between $350 and 500 a month. I apply and am honest on my forms, they disregards medical bills, utilities, etc....no kidding the amount of food stamps we qualified for....get ready sports fans cuz you may want to run out and apply....$6.00 a month. That is right. Somehow these scam artist are getting a few hundred a month (and most have multiple family members collecting food stamps so the are into the thousands of dollars worth a month) and I'm living on water and dried fruit and noodles and they offer six bucks worth of food stamps, keep in mind that is only for six months so we would get a grand total of $36 woth of help over the next half a year! I told them to keep it. They need to end the fraud and also to help those who need help.

Another area are the jails and prisons. First off kick every illegal alien prisoner OUT. They contribute nothing and cost plenty, give them to their home country and let them do as they will with them. If they want them running around free so be it, if they want to toss them into a pit and feed them once a week that is their cultural diverse right to do so. Let private organizations or non traditional jails take care of the low threat or no threat prisoners. Why house people who can be housed by their own families? Let the prisons serve their purpose, to be use to store threats to society not just to store people who shouldn't be locked up.

There are a lot of things that can be done, too bad there are lots of people willing to scream, moan, and point their shaking fingrs at those trying to make the cuts.
rockwall
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Very intelligent comments from Joe Klein regarding the teachers unions and public sector unions in general:

"But the problem isn't only the inability to fire bad teachers--and not just bad teachers, but even those who've been caught commiting crimes and hitting on students. The problem is that we are unable to reward good teachers."

"From Franklin Roosevelt on, progressive politicians have worried about the impact of giving public employees the right to organize. There is a reason for that. The public sector is different from the private sector. When General Motors negotiates with its workers to change its pension and health care benefits system, the United Auto Workers knows that unless it sits down at the table and negotiates for real, the company could easily close shop. When the teachers union sits down with Mayor Bloomberg or Governor Walker or any other elected official, they have an unfair piece of leverage, a built-in structural dysfunction--they know that the Governor can't shut down the schools. "There's no reason for them to negotiate in good faith," former New York City Schools Chancellor Joel Klein told me this morning.

And there is a second, corrupting factor: the UAW* can't vote or campaign for new management. The Teachers Unions can and do. Far too often, new contracts have been acts of collusion rather than negotiation--with the unions wielding the extremely powerful sledgehammer of campaign contributions and eager bodies to staff phone banks, leaflet and go door to door. Essentially, public sector unions have the ability to sit on both sides of the table--their managers are their employees: another profound structural dysfunction. In some larger cities, public employees make up a disproportionate percentage of all voters, an estimated 20% in New York (and, believe me, teachers are among the most assiduous of voters). It is no wonder that politicians of both parties in union states have gifted these unions egregious benefits, especially in areas--like work rules--that don't show up in the budget."

And from Charles Lane:
"In the wake of that horrific tragedy, Americans reflected on -- and argued about -- the possible connection between the violence and today's often nasty, polarized political discourse."
"Yet today in Wisconsin, anger and vilification are once again the order of the day -- and the incivility emanates from the progressive end of the spectrum, including, no doubt, many of the same people who blamed right-wing vitriol for creating a climate of violence in Arizona. Union-backed demonstrators, furious at Republican Gov. Scott Walker's plans for reining in public-sector unions, equate him with Hosni Mubarak and Adolf Hitler, in disgusting mimickry of some Tea Party members' inflammatory linkage between Obama and the evil dictators of history. (See Photo no. 10 in this gallery) or Photo 13 in this gallery ."
"Meanwhile, progressive voices in the media fanned the flames, spreading misinformation and outright falsehoods with a zest that would make Glenn Beck blush: Gov. Walker wants to crush unions with the National Guard; he manufactured a budget crisis to justify his attack on unions; he proposed cutting union workers' pay 20 percent."

It would be hard to describe Joe Klein or Charles Lane as conservative commentators.
EsnRedshirt
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#$%&*@!

For every fact, someone comes up with another fact that disproves it. This argument's pointless, the waters are so muddy nobody can see what the truth is.

I give up; one of the other liberal posters is going to have to swing by here with a sonar to resolve this.
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Dannydoyle
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OH yea more distortion is exactly what is needed.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
MagicSanta
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I do like that Mubarak is now up there with Hitler. They are correct. There is no reason for the teachers union to improve things at schools either (my wife is a retired teacher). If they improve they can no longer claim to need to be paid more and have more time off in order to improve schools.
Dannydoyle
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I think Redshirt would be less frustrated if he would concentrate less on class warfare and twisting facts.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On 2011-02-19 11:23, EsnRedshirt wrote:

GDW, Danny, I think the problem is that some people equate taxes with theft. By the way, how do you reconcile increasing tax cuts with reducing the deficit? If I'm paying off my mortgage, and I decide to only budget $100 a month for the payment instead of $200 a month, I've more than doubled the amount of time it'll take to pay it off (because of interest.)


Your analogy ignores that "tax cuts" refer to cuts in the RATE of taxation, not a dollar amount.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
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