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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Not very magical, still... » » The press and the Gifford shooting (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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rockwall
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On 2011-02-21 18:46, rockwall wrote:
Since 95% of Americans don't pay taxes, that would be difficult. Unless by a tax 'cut', he means a benefits 'increase'.


Hmmm, I don't mean to say only 5% of Americans pay taxes. I mean to say that Much Less than 95% do so it would be impossible to cut taxes for 95%.
Dannydoyle
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I believe it is actually under 50% but don't quote me.
Danny Doyle
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Dannydoyle
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On 2011-02-19 12:19, EsnRedshirt wrote:
I know there's no simple answers. I'm just tired of unions always getting a bad rap here. The second anyone mentions corporations in a negative light, though, we get people jumping down our throats.


Really? You CONSTANTLY are on a class warfare binge trying to get people to hate corporations. Wanna know who works for coroporations? I looked it up. People.

Unions take dues, sometimes MANDETORY and if you are a republican they use YOUR MONEY to fund democratic candidates instead of letting you buy food for your kids so they starve. Nice. (See I can do that too. LOL)
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
MagicSanta
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Redshirt, you are in an area not known for unions outside of the city....
EsnRedshirt
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I'd respond but -ack- I'm too busy trying to -gack- pull you all out of my -mmmrrff- throat!
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MagicSanta
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I'm serious, the valley just hasn't been a break through area for unions. They would love to be in there but other than some of the guys like Lockheed with the machinest and the glass guys it just ain't happenin'.
HerbLarry
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Meanwhile Gabrielle is speaking and likes toast.
She is able to laugh and respond to jokes, eat sushi, and when asked how she was feeling, said "I'm better".
You know why don't act naive.
EsnRedshirt
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Hehe- Santa, I just remembered the time when I worked in QA (video game tester, no less) and someone in the department, sick of all the overtime we were putting in, had the bright idea to try and unionize.

Let that sink in- unionized video game testers.

Now I'll wait till you stop laughing... Okay, I don't have all day here. Your response is pretty much the same response he got from everybody else.

---

Hooray for Giffords! I'm glad she's making such great headway.
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MagicSanta
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How much does a headway? About four ounce less since the attack!
landmark
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Quote:
On 2011-02-22 21:09, Dannydoyle wrote:
Quote:
On 2011-02-19 12:19, EsnRedshirt wrote:
I know there's no simple answers. I'm just tired of unions always getting a bad rap here. The second anyone mentions corporations in a negative light, though, we get people jumping down our throats.


Really? You CONSTANTLY are on a class warfare binge trying to get people to hate corporations. Wanna know who works for coroporations? I looked it up. People.




Man, what was I thinking? UP WITH PEOPLE!
(*except if they're union workers, right?)
MagicSanta
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There is nothing like an Up With People reference!
Woland
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Speaking of politicians and elected offi......iolence:

Quote:
The rhetoric around Wisconsin's government labor dispute is getting more violent. NHJournal.com reports that Rep. Michael Capuano, a Massachusetts Democrat, said this yesterday at a Boston "solidarity" rally: "I'm proud to be here with people who understand that it's more than just sending an email to get you going. Every once and awhile you need to get out on the streets and get a little bloody when necessary."

The Boston Globe reports that the union crowd responded to Capuano's exhortation with "cheers, whistles and applause" and that Capuano, issued a written semiapology: "I strongly believe in standing up for worker rights and my passion for preserving those rights may have gotten the best of me yesterday in an unscripted speech. I wish I had used different language to express my passion and I regret my choice of words."

It will not surprise you to learn that Capuano is another "civility" hypocrite. On Jan. 9, the day after a madman in Tucson, Ariz., got a little bloody, the Globe quoted him: "What the hell is going on? There's always some degree of tension in politics; everybody knows the last couple of years there's been an intentional increase in the degree of heat in political discourse. . . . If nothing else good comes out of this, I'm hoping it causes people to reconsider how they deal with things."

***

Capuano's rhetoric at yesterday's rally was not just violent but authoritarian. He urged government employees to "get a little bloody"--to commit violent acts against citizens, as if this were Libya. As we noted yesterday, public sector "collective bargaining," in which public officials "negotiate" with the unions that helped elect them, is essentially a conspiracy to steal money from taxpayers. Capuano, it seems, would like to escalate that to armed robbery.


Woland
EsnRedshirt
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Oh brother... the WSJ's "opinion" section. Even before Murdoch bought out the WSJ and turned it into a hack rag, their "opinion" section was consistantly awful.
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landmark
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A prank call to Walker revealed the true nature of this guy. A caller pretended to be the far right wing reactionary billionaire David Koch. "Koch" suggests sending in some fake protestors as troublemakers. See Walker's response:

'Koch': We’ll back you any way we can. What we were thinking about the crowd was, uh, was planting some troublemakers.

Walker: You know, well, the only problem with that —because we thought about that. The problem—the, my only gut reaction to that is right now the lawmakers I’ve talked to have just completely had it with them, the public is not really fond of this.


So that was one their possible strategies. Only nixed it because it wasn't deemed necessary and could backfire. Evidently Walker hasn't seen the latest USA Today poll that shows 61% of the US public believes in the right of collective bargaining for public sector workers.

More here:
http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2011/02/23-2
EsnRedshirt
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By the way, without hearing broader context, I'm going to assume that "get a little bloody" refers to the possibility of protestors getting roughed up by riot police.

Given America's record with protestors, it's certainly a possible outcome.
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Woland
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That's right, EsnRedShirt, ignore Capuano's call for violence, and rant on about your dislike of the newspaper.

W.
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I think Esn offered at least a plausible explanation for the quotation other than a call for violence. I don't think it's necessarily correct, but it's a reasonable interpretation.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
Woland
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Based on Representative Capuano's apology, in which that deft interpretation was not mentioned, but in which he said his "passion got the best of" him, I'd say that wasn't what the Representative was imagining. Like Frances Fox Piven, he was hoping for protester violence against the "establishment."

Meanwhile, here is a good analysis of the underlying issue from Victor Davis Hanson:

Quote:
We live in a therapeutic age, one in which the old tragic view of our ancestors has been replaced by prolonged adolescence. Adolescents hold adult notions of consumption: they understand the comfort of a pricey car; they appreciate the status conveyed by a particular sort of handbag or sunglasses; they sense how outward consumption and refined tastes can translate into popularity and envy; and they appreciate how a slogan or world view can win acceptance among peers without worry over its validity. But they have no adult sense of acquisition, themselves not paying taxes, balancing the family budget, or worrying about household insurance, maintenance, or debt. Theirs is a world view of today or tomorrow, not of next year — or even of next week.

So adolescents throw fits when denied a hip sweater or a trip to Disneyland, concluding that it is somehow “unfair” or “mean,” without concern about the funds available to grant their agendas. We see now just that adolescent mind in Wisconsin. “They” surely can come up with the money from someone (“the rich”) somehow to pay teachers and public servants what they deserve. And what they deserve is determined not by comparable rates in private enterprise, or by market value (if the DMV clerk loses a job, does another public bureau or private company inevitably seize the opportunity to hire such a valuable worker at comparable or improved wages?), or by results produced (improved test scores, more applicants processed in an office, overhead reduced, etc.), or by what the strapped state is able to provide, but by what is deemed to be necessary to ensure an upper-middle class lifestyle. That is altogether understandable and decent, but it is entirely adolescent in a globalized economy.

Why so? In a word, the United States is not producing enough real wealth to justify a particular standard of living among its public workforce far superior to counterparts in the private sector. We are borrowing massively abroad for redistributive entitlements. We fight wars with credit cards. We talk of cap-and-trade and “climate change” without prior worry about how to fuel the United States, as we sink in perpetual debt to import well over half our oil. We have open borders and pat ourselves on our backs for the ensuing “diversity,” without worry that illegality and lack of reverence for federal laws, absence of English, no diplomas, multiculturalism instead of the melting pot, the cynicism and chauvinism of Mexico, and recessionary times are a perfect storm for a dependent, and eventually resentful, underclass extending well into a second generation, one that fumes over why things outside are not equal rather than looking within to ensure that they could be.

Who would not wish pristine 19th-century rivers to run all year long? But that same utopian rarely thinks like an adult: “I want water releases into the San Joaquin River all year long and am willing to pay more money at Whole Earth for my produce to subsidize such diversion of irrigation water; I do not wish any more derricks off Santa Barbara, so I choose to drive a Smart car rather than my Lexus SUV. And I want teachers to be able to strike, and receive $100,000 in compensation and benefits, and therefore am willing to close down a rural hospital in Wisconsin or tax the wealthy with full knowledge that many will leave the state. I insist on amnesty and open borders, and will put my children in schools where 50% do not speak English, and live in the barrios to lend my talents where needed to ensure parity for new arrivals. I want cap-and-trade and so believe that the lower middle classes should pay “skyrocketing” energy bills to subsidize such legislation.” And so on.

Finally, the adolescent thinks in a rigid, fossilized fashion in explicating the “unfairness” of it all, unable yet to process new data and adjust conclusions accordingly. So we now hear that the evil corporate/Wall Street nexus is turning us into a Republican-driven Third World — apparently unwilling to see that among the largest contributors of campaign cash were unions, and both Wall Street and international corporations favored Barack Obama in the last election, the first presidential candidate in the history of campaign financing legislation to opt out of the program in order to raise even more “fat cat” money. Just because one is a former Chicago organizer does not mean he cannot be the largest recipient of Goldman Sachs or BP donations in history. Railing against Las Vegas jet-setters does not mean that one cannot prefer Martha’s Vineyard, Vail, or Costa del Sol to Camp David.

We talk about all these “millionaires,” but fail to include a Rahm Emanuel who managed to receive several million for his apparent fiscal and investment “expertise” or the liberal Clintonite insiders who looted Fannie and Freddie in bonuses just before these agencies imploded. The Koch brother are deemed evil; George Soros and Warren Buffet enlightened billionaires about whose modes of acquisition of riches we must be indifferent. Anything that might upset the predetermined adolescent world view is simply ignored in “I don’t want to hear all this” teen-aged fashion. The adolescent plays reruns of Al Gore’s mythodramas and simply thinks away the ensuing evidence of fraud and malfeasance that seems so deeply embedded in the climate change industry. The rant and temper tantrum follow in the puerile mode of being so distasteful that someone surely must give in to stop the embarrassing disturbance.

There are lots of issues involved in Wisconsin, in the impending financial and fuel crises, and in the sense of American impotency abroad. Yet a common denominator is a national adolescence, in which we want what we have not earned. We demand the world be the way that it cannot; and we don’t wish to hear “unfair” arguments from “bad” and “mean” people.


Woland
landmark
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What in the name of Ehrich Weiss does all the above nonsense have to do with stealing money from teachers to give it to corporations? Nothing.
And Al Gore, Clinton, Obama, and Emmanuel as the heros of the protesters? What has he been smoking? They've all been anti-union bashers just like himself.

Talk about adolescent fantasies: you, the peasants must pay for the wealth of the rich.

And I love the bit about how the adolescents want to "close down a rural hospital in Wisconsin or tax the rich." Hanson can't even keep his own rhetoric straight anymore. So he's in effect saying that he is in favor of government funding of hospitals, as if it weren't the constant conservative attack that has been cutting funding for all government aid to hospitals . Remember, those guys are supposed to be against that kind of stuff. They want privatization.

I hope they pay him well, because it must take a lot of money to keep a man who writes this drivel from falling apart when he looks in the mirror.
Woland
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I guess you didn't agree . . . .
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