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EsnRedshirt
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I think I'm gonna sit back and let Woland, Danny, and gdw hash this out for a bit, just to see where it leads. We know the liberals and the conservatives can't come to a consensus with each other... but can either group come to a consensus with themselves? Smile
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landmark
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On 2011-03-17 00:47, Dannydoyle wrote:
Oh no you used the "G" word!

I could be wrong, but I don't believe I've ever expressed my beliefs here about God one way or the other.
Woland
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Well, gdw, paying the legitimate salaries of legitimate government employees is legitimate. But taking money away from one group of citizens to give it to another group is nothing but corruption, it is just stealing with the use of governmental power.

As Walter Williams describes it, imagine that you and I are walking down the street. We see a poor, sick, homeless woman. "Gee, Woland," you say, "We should help that woman." I agree. And soon we see a well-dressed, upper middle class businessman walking by. So we grab him, and by force of violence, steal his watch and his wallet. With the money we obtain, we send the poor, sick, homeless woman to get a meal, clothing, medical care, and shelter for the night.

Is there any doubt that we are guilty of theft?

Now suppose that instead of 2 of us, we were part of a gang of 10 men. Still stealing? Obviously yes. What if we were a gang of 100? Still stealing. And so on. Even if we are a gang of 1,000,000 voters, and we vote for our government agents to do the stealing for us, it is still theft. And theft is never legitimate. No matter how you dress it up.

Woland
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What you left out unfortunately, --because I'm personally acquainted with this very case you speak of-- is that that businessman with his nice suit and polished fingernails and civil tone had mugged the woman the night before and stole the little she had in the first place. But not just that one woman. He was a serial abuser who would not stop doing this. Of course he denied it, and the judge he paid off let him go. But I was there and saw it, and so did lots of others. Some of them had been mugged by that very same guy too.
Dannydoyle
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On 2011-03-17 10:05, EsnRedshirt wrote:
I think I'm gonna sit back and let Woland, Danny, and gdw hash this out for a bit, just to see where it leads. We know the liberals and the conservatives can't come to a consensus with each other... but can either group come to a consensus with themselves? Smile


What concensus do you want exactly? Taxes are TO PAY FOR THE LEGITIMATE FUNCTION OF GOVERNMENT. The 18 or so things spelled out in that little worn out piece of parchment you so hate because it gets in the way of your Utopia! I think we are in perfect concensus.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
EsnRedshirt
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Danny- gdw would say there's no legitimate function of government. You might find Woland in support of your position.

And I don't hate the constitution. I just have a different interpretation of some of those 18 things than you do.
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Woland
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Well, landmark, you share the view of business that has been successfully inculcated by communist artists and intellectuals like I once was, to the extent that it has completely permeated elite and popular culture. But it's incorrect. In reality, that businessman put in uncompensated 80-hour weeks, risking his own and his family's future, to create after years of effort, an enterprise which employed that woman's nieces and nephews, providing them with a living wage, fringe benefits, and a plan for their eventual retirement. The fact that her sons grew up to be crack-smoking ne'er do wells is not her fault, but it is not that businessman's faul either.

And you didn't see nothing. And you still don't.

Woland
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I had to go back to try and remember what this topic was originally about. Long way from where it is now.
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers
landmark
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On 2011-03-18 10:27, Woland wrote:
Well, landmark, you share the view of business that has been successfully inculcated by communist artists and intellectuals like I once was, to the extent that it has completely permeated elite and popular culture. But it's incorrect. In reality, that businessman put in uncompensated 80-hour weeks, risking his own and his family's future, to create after years of effort, an enterprise which employed that woman's nieces and nephews, providing them with a living wage, fringe benefits, and a plan for their eventual retirement. The fact that her sons grew up to be crack-smoking ne'er do wells is not her fault, but it is not that businessman's faul either.

And you didn't see nothing. And you still don't.

Woland

Correct about not seeing nothing.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424......778.html
Dannydoyle
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On 2011-03-18 00:26, EsnRedshirt wrote:
Danny- gdw would say there's no legitimate function of government. You might find Woland in support of your position.

And I don't hate the constitution. I just have a different interpretation of some of those 18 things than you do.


THERE IS NO INTURPRETATION! It says what it says. Dude words mean things. We are held bound by those words like contracts, so that we can hold others bound. Otherwise they mean NOTHING. Which I guess to you is right. It means whatever you can twist it to say. Like most libs throughout history.

When have I EVER agreed with a broader point GDW made? He is an anarchist not a conservative. You wanted conservatives to agree, and Woland and I happen to. But go ahead 'inturpret' it differently, or spin it to make your point like you do everything.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
EsnRedshirt
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No interpretation? Great! We don't need a Supreme Court then, since obviously there's nothing for them to make judgements on.
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Dannydoyle
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Wow so there is no difference in YOU and the SCOTUS? The function of SCOTUS is to see if laws made fall within the constitution, not to "inturpret" it. Not to expand it, not to legislate from the bench. But thanks for a lib point of view. Oh and it is not to "inturpret" what can be taxed for! Oh wait let me guess, it is a "living and breathing" thing with you right?
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
EsnRedshirt
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Danny, I know we're both technically speaking English, but sometimes I wonder if we're actually speaking the same language at all.
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Dannydoyle
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The problem is you don't listen, you "inturpret" things. If you would just read what is written for what it is there would be no problem
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
balducci
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On 2011-03-18 15:45, Dannydoyle wrote:

Wow so there is no difference in YOU and the SCOTUS? The function of SCOTUS is to see if laws made fall within the constitution, not to "inturpret" it. Not to expand it, not to legislate from the bench.

Someone had better tell SCOTUS.

http://www.supremecourt.gov/about/constitutional.aspx

"As the final arbiter of the law, the Court is charged with ensuring the American people the promise of equal justice under law and, thereby, also functions as guardian and INTERPRETER of the Constitution."

"Few other courts in the world have the same authority of constitutional INTERPRETATION and none have exercised it for as long or with as much influence."

"In retrospect, it is evident that constitutional INTERPRETATION and application were made necessary by the very nature of the Constitution. The Founding Fathers had wisely worded that document in rather general terms leaving it open to future elaboration to meet changing conditions."

And so on ... see link to SCOTUS site above.
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
LobowolfXXX
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The Court pretty much charged itself with interpreting the Constitution (in Marbury v. Madison). One of the more genius political moves and power grabs in American history.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
balducci
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On 2011-03-18 17:27, LobowolfXXX wrote:

The Court pretty much charged itself with interpreting the Constitution (in Marbury v. Madison). One of the more genius political moves and power grabs in American history.

Marbury v. Madison
Argued February 11, 1803
Decided February 24, 1803

I read the above affirmed the principal of judicial review put forth in Federalist No. 78, published May 28, 1788.

The U.S. Constitution was created in 1787, and ratified on June 21, 1788.

So it looks like the Constitution had, what, no more than 16 years (maybe much less than that) before it was reinterpreted and some of its main intent perverted?

Well, it had a good run.
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
HerbLarry
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Didn't Jefferson say something along the lines of in 20 years we were probably gonna have to do the whole revolution thing again and to keep an eye on those b@st@rds cause you can't trust 'em?
You know why don't act naive.
Dannydoyle
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On 2011-03-18 17:27, LobowolfXXX wrote:
The Court pretty much charged itself with interpreting the Constitution (in Marbury v. Madison). One of the more genius political moves and power grabs in American history.


EXACTLY. Like I said it is not in the parchment.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
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