We Remember The Magic Café We Remember
Username:
Password:
[ Lost Password ]
  [ Forgot Username ]
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Not very magical, still... » » The press and the Gifford shooting (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

 Go to page [Previous]  1~2~3..6~7~8~9~10..17..23..29..35..40~41~42 [Next]
critter
View Profile
Inner circle
Spokane, WA
2551 Posts

Profile of critter
Quote:
On 2011-01-16 22:05, acesover wrote:
Can a doctor report a mentally incompetent to the FBI or is the HIPA law preventing it?


If you mean Psychiatric or Psychological doctor then I can give the condensed answer to this:
To report a client they have to have reported a specific target and have a specific and realistic plan, as well as the means to carry out the act. If those criteria aren't met then no we can't talk about it.
If they are met then we have to report it.
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers
spatlind
View Profile
Special user
still moving
863 Posts

Profile of spatlind
Meh
Actions lie louder than words - Carolyn Wells

I believe in God, only I spell it Nature - Frank Lloyd Wright.
spatlind
View Profile
Special user
still moving
863 Posts

Profile of spatlind
Sorry, in case I wasn't clear - meh
Actions lie louder than words - Carolyn Wells

I believe in God, only I spell it Nature - Frank Lloyd Wright.
MagicSanta
View Profile
Inner circle
Northern Nevada
5845 Posts

Profile of MagicSanta
The guy who shot up a bar in Berkeley a few years ago bought a gun from a dealer who tried not to sell it to him. The shop owner, when he checked with whoever they check with, told them that he thought the guy was unstable and the owner was told if he didn't sell him the gun the buyer could sue him and that he could lose his license. So much for that.

Again I am not a gun guy, don't like'em, so I am not one of those screaming about the second admendment types. It is obvious that the legal owner of legally purchased weapons will never ever use them other than in hunting or target shooting. They lie their arses off about protecting themselves and property with guns but they are virtually harmless people with the capability not to be but that isn't likely. I know if I'm ever some place where a nut is killing people I hope that someone with a gun IS there....that way I can take it from the wuss and shoot the culprit since most gun nuts ain't gut the gumption to use 'em....I on the other hand don't have 'em cuz I am too likely to use it.
EsnRedshirt
View Profile
Special user
Newark, CA
895 Posts

Profile of EsnRedshirt
What ever happened to "We reserve the right to refuse service to anybody"?

Okay- we really need to revisit gun control laws. I don't want to take anyone's guns away, but come on- does anyone here really think it's okay to make people sell firearms to someone who's obviously mentally unhinged?
Self-proclaimed Jack-of-all-trades and google expert*.

* = Take any advice from this person with a grain of salt.
acesover
View Profile
Special user
I believe I have
819 Posts

Profile of acesover
Quote:
On 2011-01-16 22:22, critter wrote:
Quote:
On 2011-01-16 22:05, acesover wrote:
Can a doctor report a mentally incompetent to the FBI or is the HIPA law preventing it?


If you mean Psychiatric or Psychological doctor then I can give the condensed answer to this:
To report a client they have to have reported a specific target and have a specific and realistic plan, as well as the means to carry out the act. If those criteria aren't met then no we can't talk about it.
If they are met then we have to report it.


Thanks for that information.

Just curious how do you determine if someones plan is realistic or not? Do they acatually have to submit a plan? Suppose they just tell you that they are going to shoot someone? How do you decide?
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
Scott Cram
View Profile
Inner circle
2677 Posts

Profile of Scott Cram
Here's a real-world reaction to the post-shooting spin.

This weekend, I saw a performer here in Vegas whose version of the blister trick had a topical twist. On the drawing of his hand, he asked someone to draw a crosshair on any finger, stating, "As we've recently learned, crosshairs are like voodoo dolls, in that they have seemingly magical powers to cause harm over great distances." It was laughs all around.
LobowolfXXX
View Profile
Inner circle
La Famiglia
1197 Posts

Profile of LobowolfXXX
Quote:
On 2011-01-16 23:16, Scott Cram wrote:
Here's a real-world reaction to the post-shooting spin.

This weekend, I saw a performer here in Vegas whose version of the blister trick had a topical twist. On the drawing of his hand, he asked someone to draw a crosshair on any finger, stating, "As we've recently learned, crosshairs are like voodoo dolls, in that they have seemingly magical powers to cause harm over great distances." It was laughs all around.


Nice!
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
acesover
View Profile
Special user
I believe I have
819 Posts

Profile of acesover
Quote:
On 2011-01-16 22:58, EsnRedshirt wrote:
What ever happened to "We reserve the right to refuse service to anybody"?

Okay- we really need to revisit gun control laws. I don't want to take anyone's guns away, but come on- does anyone here really think it's okay to make people sell firearms to someone who's obviously mentally unhinged?



I guess this is where it gets sticky. It is their constitutional right. Wow talk about a catach 22.

If you just look up at the post critter made he says as profewssionals they must decide whether the person has a real plan and they are professionals. Whereas you propose a store clerk can make the same decision. I am not disputing your logic here. Just that it shows how confusing this can get. Very interesting.

Heck 11:20..Good night going to turn in early this evening. Maybe read my Nook.
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
balducci
View Profile
Loyal user
Canada
230 Posts

Profile of balducci
Quote:
On 2011-01-16 22:05, acesover wrote:

So why are some of these people not on the FBI's radar? Can a doctor report a mentally incompetent to the FBI or is the HIPA law preventing it? Do the local police and sheriff's dept report an individual if said individual has been reported to be a threat to someone or has madae terrorist threats to individuals? Do they even wriite him up locally?

Something more about the subject here:

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Politics/20......uy-a-gun

The federal Gun Control Act of 1968 prohibits the possession of firearms by the mentally ill. So why was Mr. Loughner able to guy a gun?

The ability to own a firearm is a constitutionally protected right, and depriving someone of that right involves a legal process. Under the 1968 law, a person must be declared mentally unfit by a court or have been committed to a mental institution to lose his or her right to possess firearms.
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
critter
View Profile
Inner circle
Spokane, WA
2551 Posts

Profile of critter
Quote:
On 2011-01-16 23:15, acesover wrote:
Quote:
On 2011-01-16 22:22, critter wrote:
Quote:
On 2011-01-16 22:05, acesover wrote:
Can a doctor report a mentally incompetent to the FBI or is the HIPA law preventing it?


If you mean Psychiatric or Psychological doctor then I can give the condensed answer to this:
To report a client they have to have reported a specific target and have a specific and realistic plan, as well as the means to carry out the act. If those criteria aren't met then no we can't talk about it.
If they are met then we have to report it.


Thanks for that information.

Just curious how do you determine if someones plan is realistic or not? Do they acatually have to submit a plan? Suppose they just tell you that they are going to shoot someone? How do you decide?


Well, if they say they're going to shoot someone, but don't own a gun or have money to buy one, then the plan is not realistic so we don't have to report it. If they have a gun then we do.
The rule came about because there was a patient who told his shrink his exact plan to kill this girl and the shrink kept it confidential, and then the guy carried out his plan.
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers
LobowolfXXX
View Profile
Inner circle
La Famiglia
1197 Posts

Profile of LobowolfXXX
Tarasoff v. U.C. Regents
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
MagicSanta
View Profile
Inner circle
Northern Nevada
5845 Posts

Profile of MagicSanta
In the Berkeley case people were angry at the gun shot owner, who I think was in Oakland, and demanded he lose his license for selling the guy the gun and it came out about the owner not wanting too. I guess it was a contitutional issue.

Now I don't remember the circumstance but when the gunman went after 101 California law offices in San Francisco THEN a bunch of movement was made in additional controls because all of a sudden it became very real to a bunch of lawyers.
Woland
View Profile
Special user
680 Posts

Profile of Woland
Tarasoff is an interesting precedent. Courts have held that it applies only to mental health workers, not even to physicians in general, but it is widely taught as a good general rule.

Woland
landmark
View Profile
Inner circle
within a triangle
5041 Posts

Profile of landmark
Woland--

7) I have no trouble with people who are an immediate threat to themselves or others lives to be placed under proper medical treatment. I don't know what you mean by locking up, but I'm not in favor of prison for mentally ill people. Anybody who has been involved with mental health agencies knows that there have been constant cuts to their budgets due to inadequate public funding, so I look forward to your requests for such funding from your local representatives.

6) Carrie's accusation against the left wing linked to a posting by Joe Farrell of WND, an influential conservative source, often referenced by right wing talk radio jocks, including Michael Savage who repeated the accusation.

5) The rabbinical quotes were cherry picking by you and the Wall Street Journal. Sorry you don't like Rabbi Hier. Is the conservative leader of the Jewish Anti-Defamation League Abraham Foxman, among others, right wing enough? He said the phrase blood libel was inappropriate.

4) The sites I linked to said this:
Quote:
James von Brunn, the white supremacist who shot and killed a security guard at the Holocaust Museum in Washington, D.C. last year, reportedly also wanted to kill White House senior adviser David Axelrod. An anti-abortion crusader killed late-term abortion provider Dr. George Tiller in May, 2009, while just last month, the FBI arrested a self-described "Christian counterpart to Osama bin Laden" for plotting to bomb an abortion clinic. Authorities arrested nine members of the "Hutaree militia" in March for plotting a violent uprising against the federal government. A Montana Tea Party leader recently advocated violence against gays. As part of the increasing Islamophobia over the past two years, one right-wing radio host said of the proposed Islamic community center in downtown Manhattan, "I hope somebody blows it up." Just last week, in the wake of the Fox News-led backlash over NPR's decision to fire contributor Juan Williams, NPR's headquarters in Washington, DC received a bomb threat. Today, the TriCity Herald reports that a supporter for Washington state GOP U.S. Senate candidate Dino Rossi attacked a woman protesting Rossi.


and
Quote:
Bourbon County campaign coordinator for Kentucky GOP Senate nominee Rand Paul, stomped on a female MoveOn.org activist's head outside a debate between Paul and his Democratic opponent Jack Conway. Profitt threw the activist, Lauren Valle, to the ground and then smashed her head to the pavement with his foot. Valle was taken to the hospital where she was treated for a concussion and a sprained arm.


These are what you dismiss as minor incidents.

3) Socialism does not have central economic planning as a defining feature. There are many conceptions of socialism without centralized planning. Democratic socialism conceives of worker democracy in the workplace and worker ownership of the means of production. This was not the case under the Nazis. However, private enterprise and private corporate co-ordination with the government is a defining feature of right wing governments and can be seen in the Nazi enterprise. Roehm and other Nazis who advocated social welfare type programs to workers were soon liquidated. The testimony of Niemoller is important because it makes clear what the true agenda of the Nazis was by someone who was present in the society at the time. He makes clear that the agenda was the destruction of communists, socialists, and trade unionists.

2)You say "Of course a guy pounding beers in a tavern is not a well-regulated militiaman." Then why do you continue to support these so-called "rights"?

1) Really, guns are a life machine? I'll try to remember that if ever I'm shot, but I don't know if my body would agree. Instead of celebrating Glock, I'll be celebrating Martin Luther King. If we really are interested in stopping violence, we could learn much from his words and actions.
acesover
View Profile
Special user
I believe I have
819 Posts

Profile of acesover
Quote:
On 2011-01-16 23:30, critter wrote:
Quote:
On 2011-01-16 23:15, acesover wrote:
Quote:
On 2011-01-16 22:22, critter wrote:
Quote:
On 2011-01-16 22:05, acesover wrote:
Can a doctor report a mentally incompetent to the FBI or is the HIPA law preventing it?


If you mean Psychiatric or Psychological doctor then I can give the condensed answer to this:
To report a client they have to have reported a specific target and have a specific and realistic plan, as well as the means to carry out the act. If those criteria aren't met then no we can't talk about it.
If they are met then we have to report it.


Thanks for that information.

Just curious how do you determine if someones plan is realistic or not? Do they acatually have to submit a plan? Suppose they just tell you that they are going to shoot someone? How do you decide?


Well, if they say they're going to shoot someone, but don't own a gun or have money to buy one, then the plan is not realistic so we don't have to report it. If they have a gun then we do.
The rule came about because there was a patient who told his shrink his exact plan to kill this girl and the shrink kept it confidential, and then the guy carried out his plan.



I understand what you are saying. But how the heck would you know whether they own a gun or not? How would you know they do not have money to buy one? If anything sounds unrealistic it is your responsibility to report or not to report. I am not disagreeing in what you say just that it does not make much sense and it sounds very unrealistic.

I mean does he have to show you his gun? Does he have to show you a receipt that he has a gun to prove he has one? Do you check his bank account and cookie jar to see if he has money to buy a gun? The whole concept seems flawed before you can report him. I may be missing something here. I would imagine your hands are tied but the law as you state it seems useless.
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
LobowolfXXX
View Profile
Inner circle
La Famiglia
1197 Posts

Profile of LobowolfXXX
Quote:
On 2011-01-17 10:41, acesover wrote:
Quote:
On 2011-01-16 23:30, critter wrote:
Quote:
On 2011-01-16 23:15, acesover wrote:
Quote:
On 2011-01-16 22:22, critter wrote:
Quote:
On 2011-01-16 22:05, acesover wrote:
Can a doctor report a mentally incompetent to the FBI or is the HIPA law preventing it?


If you mean Psychiatric or Psychological doctor then I can give the condensed answer to this:
To report a client they have to have reported a specific target and have a specific and realistic plan, as well as the means to carry out the act. If those criteria aren't met then no we can't talk about it.
If they are met then we have to report it.


Thanks for that information.

Just curious how do you determine if someones plan is realistic or not? Do they acatually have to submit a plan? Suppose they just tell you that they are going to shoot someone? How do you decide?


Well, if they say they're going to shoot someone, but don't own a gun or have money to buy one, then the plan is not realistic so we don't have to report it. If they have a gun then we do.
The rule came about because there was a patient who told his shrink his exact plan to kill this girl and the shrink kept it confidential, and then the guy carried out his plan.



I understand what you are saying. But how the heck would you know whether they own a gun or not? How would you know they do not have money to buy one? If anything sounds unrealistic it is your responsibility to report or not to report. I am not disagreeing in what you say just that it does not make much sense and it sounds very unrealistic.

I mean does he have to show you his gun? Does he have to show you a receipt that he has a gun to prove he has one? Do you check his bank account and cookie jar to see if he has money to buy a gun? The whole concept seems flawed before you can report him. I may be missing something here. I would imagine your hands are tied but the law as you state it seems useless.


Generally, the more specific the plan, the more credible. The case that created the rule was an example where the patient went into sufficient detail to be believable. While you're correct that in many cases, that won't be true, in some cases, it will be.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
critter
View Profile
Inner circle
Spokane, WA
2551 Posts

Profile of critter
Quote:
On 2011-01-16 23:32, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Tarasoff v. U.C. Regents


That's the one.
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers
acesover
View Profile
Special user
I believe I have
819 Posts

Profile of acesover
Quote:
On 2011-01-17 10:37, landmark wrote:
Woland--

7) I have no trouble with people who are an immediate threat to themselves or others lives to be placed under proper medical treatment. I don't know what you mean by locking up, but I'm not in favor of prison for mentally ill people. Anybody who has been involved with mental health agencies knows that there have been constant cuts to their budgets due to inadequate public funding, so I look forward to your requests for such funding from your local representatives.

6) Carrie's accusation against the left wing linked to a posting by Joe Farrell of WND, an influential conservative source, often referenced by right wing talk radio jocks, including Michael Savage who repeated the accusation.

5) The rabbinical quotes were cherry picking by you and the Wall Street Journal. Sorry you don't like Rabbi Hier. Is the conservative leader of the Jewish Anti-Defamation League Abraham Foxman, among others, right wing enough? He said the phrase blood libel was inappropriate.

4) The sites I linked to said this:
Quote:
James von Brunn, the white supremacist who shot and killed a security guard at the Holocaust Museum in Washington, D.C. last year, reportedly also wanted to kill White House senior adviser David Axelrod. An anti-abortion crusader killed late-term abortion provider Dr. George Tiller in May, 2009, while just last month, the FBI arrested a self-described "Christian counterpart to Osama bin Laden" for plotting to bomb an abortion clinic. Authorities arrested nine members of the "Hutaree militia" in March for plotting a violent uprising against the federal government. A Montana Tea Party leader recently advocated violence against gays. As part of the increasing Islamophobia over the past two years, one right-wing radio host said of the proposed Islamic community center in downtown Manhattan, "I hope somebody blows it up." Just last week, in the wake of the Fox News-led backlash over NPR's decision to fire contributor Juan Williams, NPR's headquarters in Washington, DC received a bomb threat. Today, the TriCity Herald reports that a supporter for Washington state GOP U.S. Senate candidate Dino Rossi attacked a woman protesting Rossi.


and
Quote:
Bourbon County campaign coordinator for Kentucky GOP Senate nominee Rand Paul, stomped on a female MoveOn.org activist's head outside a debate between Paul and his Democratic opponent Jack Conway. Profitt threw the activist, Lauren Valle, to the ground and then smashed her head to the pavement with his foot. Valle was taken to the hospital where she was treated for a concussion and a sprained arm.


These are what you dismiss as minor incidents.

3) Socialism does not have central economic planning as a defining feature. There are many conceptions of socialism without centralized planning. Democratic socialism conceives of worker democracy in the workplace and worker ownership of the means of production. This was not the case under the Nazis. However, private enterprise and private corporate co-ordination with the government is a defining feature of right wing governments and can be seen in the Nazi enterprise. Roehm and other Nazis who advocated social welfare type programs to workers were soon liquidated. The testimony of Niemoller is important because it makes clear what the true agenda of the Nazis was by someone who was present in the society at the time. He makes clear that the agenda was the destruction of communists, socialists, and trade unionists.

2)You say "Of course a guy pounding beers in a tavern is not a well-regulated militiaman." Then why do you continue to support these so-called "rights"?

1) Really, guns are a life machine? I'll try to remember that if ever I'm shot, but I don't know if my body would agree. Instead of celebrating Glock, I'll be celebrating Martin Luther King. If we really are interested in stopping violence, we could learn much from his words and actions.



Well I won't get involved in the whole of your lengthy post but I would like to ask about your #1. Why were you shot? Were you threating someone with a baseball bat? Were you holding a broken bottle and about to slash someone with it? Were you breaking into someones house and they shot you not knowing your intentions however their wife and children were home? Were you high on drugs and breaking into someones house to feed your habit by stealing and God knows what to the inhabitants? Or did someone just decide to shot you while you were walking down the street minding your own business? The last of which is the most unlikely possibility. So just how did you get shot in your example stated in #1?
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
acesover
View Profile
Special user
I believe I have
819 Posts

Profile of acesover
Off topic here but some of these gun laws remind me of the cigarette laws. Am I right in assuming that one cannot purchase cigarettes unless you are at least 18 years old? But there is no law that prevents someone younger than 18 from smoking? I can only say DUH!

So again it seems that we are punishing the seller and not the perp. By the way what happens to someone who purchases cigarettes when under age? My guess is nothing.

I guess it is just me but I see no point in such a law as not being able to purchase cigarettes when under 18. Also I feel that smoking is a horrible habit. By the way I am not a smoker. I tried it when a teenager and it got me dizzy and gave me a headache (thank God for small favors). And it only cost around 40 cents a pack then.
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Not very magical, still... » » The press and the Gifford shooting (0 Likes)
 Go to page [Previous]  1~2~3..6~7~8~9~10..17..23..29..35..40~41~42 [Next]
[ Top of Page ]
All content & postings Copyright © 2001-2021 Steve Brooks. All Rights Reserved.
This page was created in 0.33 seconds requiring 5 database queries.
The views and comments expressed on The Magic Café
are not necessarily those of The Magic Café, Steve Brooks, or Steve Brooks Magic.
> Privacy Statement <

ROTFL Billions and billions served! ROTFL