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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Not very magical, still... » » The press and the Gifford shooting (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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MagicSanta
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Yeah.... Most people with guns would stand there shaking while the bad guy walked up and took it off 'em and slapped 'em silly.
EsnRedshirt
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Yep. He went there.
Woland, you're comparing the nation of Israel to armed civilians during WW2. I'm not really sure that's a valid analogy.
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Woland
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It's not an analogy. It's about attitude.
MagicSanta
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I'm not really aware of a big civilian fight against the Nazis, the militaries had enough issues trying to fight back, maybe the exception being Russia, not sure. Israel is a different animal. There is a definate and understandable military presence there and because of their situation the populace would have to fight, and will, should the need come along. Israel is also frustrating because it is hard to hit on a girl who has an automatic rifle....I tried, never even got a smile out of her.
landmark
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Quote:
On 2011-01-17 17:02, Woland wrote:
Mr. Bartlett, you are perfectly correct. I consider that our individual and collective right to defense against a tyrannical government is a subset of our individual right to defend our selves. In the scheme of things, however, the necessity of arming the citizens against a tyrannical government was of paramount importance to the Founders.

And the world's experience during the XXth Century suggests that a tyrannical government is indeed something that we should fear.

Woland

But your defense of the 16-year Pinochet regime and the Argentine junta shows that you don't fear tyrannical governments, only governments that don't allow US investment.
critter
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Quote:
On 2011-01-17 18:33, MagicSanta wrote:
I'm not really aware of a big civilian fight against the Nazis, the militaries had enough issues trying to fight back, maybe the exception being Russia, not sure. Israel is a different animal. There is a definate and understandable military presence there and because of their situation the populace would have to fight, and will, should the need come along. Israel is also frustrating because it is hard to hit on a girl who has an automatic rifle....I tried, never even got a smile out of her.


A friend gave me a Krav Maga book for Christmas that has a really good story about a family of Jews fighting a group of Nazis with Krav Maga. Kicked the snot out of them. They weren't killed though because the Nazis didn't want anyone to know that thier master race soldiers got whooped by "Sie Juden."
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers
MagicSanta
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Oh man. I agree about Argentina back in 'the day'. I love Chile, I love the people, everything about it. Pinochet was not a good guy but he did do some things that brought Chile up to speed as far as transportation and agriculture go. After the initial ouster of Allende there were too many killed (I think about 1500 to 3000) and a lot were rounded up and there were mistakes etc. made. The police though, after a few years and getting into the early 80s, were not heavy handed, the schools were good, and the people worked hard toward growing Chile. I've been in parts of the world, including Latin America, where people were vanishing, the police would come down on anyone who they thought were against the leadership, I've seen military wade through crowds with bats and shove rifles into peoples faces for no reason. Chile was a wonderland compared to some of those other places and is a partner to the United States and provide great produce, wine, and otherp products and materials.
Dannydoyle
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Great a perfectly good bullet joke shot to hell. Thanks guys.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
MagicSanta
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It was a perfectly good joke....
Dannydoyle
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Thanks, now I will stop pouting.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Woland
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Well, landmark, I am disappointed that you chose to attack me instead of addressing the points under discussion, but of course I am used to ad hominem argumentation from my long years on the hard left.

I don't think that in my posts here and there on threads in this forum I ever said that I "supported" the Pinochet regime. What I said was:

1) The Pinochet coup d'etat was a last-ditch attempt to prevent Allende and his Cuban advisors from establishing a Marxist-Leninist "dictatorship of the proletariat" in Chile.

2) The total number of persons killed during & after the coup d'etat is estimated to be about 2,000, most of them killed in the immediate fighting. That is less than 1% of the numbers executed by Marxist-Leninists after their establishment of the "dictatorship of the proletariat" anywhere. Those on the left who denounce Pinochet as a mass murderer are curiously silent when it comes to Che Guevara & Fidel (10 thousand or more), Pol Pot and his gang of Sorbonne graduates (5 million), let alone Lenin (millions), Stalin (tens of millions), and Mao Tse-tung (50 - 100 million).

3) The Pinochet regime was a temporary extra-constitutional emergency remedy - a caretaker government. When the voters of Chile expressed in an open plebiscite, their desire to return to electoral, civilian government, General Pinochet quietly stepped down. Has any Marxist-Leninist dictator ever done the same?

4) The results also speak for themselves. Chile is prosperous and free. In our hemisphere, Cuba is a miserable wreckage, and Venezuela is heading down the tubes. It has nothing to do with US investment. It has to do with the universal formula for economic prosperity: free markets in material goods and labor, respect for private property, and respect for the rights of the individual. Put those principles into action, and your country will be rich; do the opposite, and you will all be equal in grinding poverty. What is it that you want for the working man, anyway?

None of that makes me a "supporter" of General Pinochet or his government. Those are just the facts of the situation.

Woland
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Let me add a little thought experiment.

If German military officers had not waited until 1944 to try to dislodge the National-Socialist regime, but had overthrown the Fuehrer in 1934, in the process killing 2 or 3 thousand of his fanatic followers, would that have been a bad thing?

If the Russian military had been willing to guarantee Finnish sovereignty and accept Finnish aid in capturing St. Petersburg and overthrowing the Bolshevik regime in 1919, and in the process killed 2 or 3 thousand of Lenin's fanatic followers, would that have been a bad thing?

That's basically what General Pinochet did.

Woland
acesover
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I love how you know all of this. Are you a googler or do you really have all this knowledge stored in your brain?

Because I am sure I can find these exact thoughts by googling. Are these your thoughts or someone elses?

Bet you do not know General Pinochet's wifes maiden name. Smile
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
Dannydoyle
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Here is a thought of my very own. If the law against killing people didn't stop the guy, how the hell would a law against a gun purchase stop the guy?

What I mean is that he already was set on murder, is a gun charge going to stop him? I mean the left needs a new playbook. They have run every play from it in this situation and it is pathetic.

First club out of the bag "BLAME THE RIGHT and talk radio". Did it, blew it turns out he hated Bush. OOPS. No matter move forward because this after all is a tragedy and emotions are high so we can take this opportunity to get gun control going. Now we run that play for as much yardage as possible. Demonise the gun owners and especially the manufacturers.

I think we NEED to change the debate. Starting with this nonsense playbook that has a play entitled "you never want to let a crisis go to waste, you can do great things during a crisis". Why is it we are not talking about changing THAT side of the debate?
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
landmark
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Woland--I'm still curious about your "long years on the hard left." What year exactly did you turn reactionary?
landmark
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Quote:
On 2011-01-18 09:15, Dannydoyle wrote:
Here is a thought of my very own. If the law against killing people didn't stop the guy, how the hell would a law against a gun purchase stop the guy?

What I mean is that he already was set on murder, is a gun charge going to stop him? I mean the left needs a new playbook. They have run every play from it in this situation and it is pathetic.

First club out of the bag "BLAME THE RIGHT and talk radio". Did it, blew it turns out he hated Bush. OOPS. No matter move forward because this after all is a tragedy and emotions are high so we can take this opportunity to get gun control going. Now we run that play for as much yardage as possible. Demonise the gun owners and especially the manufacturers.

I think we NEED to change the debate. Starting with this nonsense playbook that has a play entitled "you never want to let a crisis go to waste, you can do great things during a crisis". Why is it we are not talking about changing THAT side of the debate?

The bullet joke was funny. And true. I'm fine with banning ammunition.

Lots of the far right were anti-Bush. Take a look at some of the militia type literature. The sum of his videos and book list indicate if anything a strong anti-government libertarian bent.

Sorry, but this is a crisis the gun guys caused.

And absolutely the manufacturers are partly to blame. There's a long history of gun manufacturers encouraging the illegal distribution of guns.
landmark
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Quote:
On 2011-01-18 07:11, Woland wrote:
Let me add a little thought experiment.

If German military officers had not waited until 1944 to try to dislodge the National-Socialist regime, but had overthrown the Fuehrer in 1934, in the process killing 2 or 3 thousand of his fanatic followers, would that have been a bad thing?

If the Russian military had been willing to guarantee Finnish sovereignty and accept Finnish aid in capturing St. Petersburg and overthrowing the Bolshevik regime in 1919, and in the process killed 2 or 3 thousand of Lenin's fanatic followers, would that have been a bad thing?

That's basically what General Pinochet did.

Woland

Yes, that makes you a supporter of Pinochet. Curious why you deny it? I'm sorry that you think I am submitting ad hominem attacks. I am only clarifying your position based on what you have posted here.
Woland
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Well, landmark, instead of debating whether or not I am a "supporter" or General Pinochet's coup, how about answering the questions posed in my "thought experiment"?

Would it have been a good thing if the OKW had deposed the National-Socialist government in 1934, even at the price of establishing a temporary military dictatorship?

Would it have been a good thing if Yudenich had secured the assistance of Mannerheim, and deposed the Bolshevik government in St. Petersburg in 1919?

How would those events been different from General Pinochet's coup d'etat?

And finally, why is it not possible to recognize General Pinochet's coup d'etat for what it was, without "supporting" it? As I mentioned to you once before, I spent a sunny day in Germany back in 1973 marching in support of a "Free, Socialist, Unaligned Chile."

Woland
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Well, acesover, I don't know General Pinochet's wife's maiden name. But I do know that General Pinochet and President Allende were brothers in the same Masonic Lodge.

Woland
acesover
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I only meant by my remark that a lot of people here spout what they google. I don't. I use what I know and in many cases it is limited and only on occasion will I google something and that is usually only to jog my memory.

Just as a matter or record did you know that General Pinochet and President Allende were brothers in the same Masonic lodge or is it something you googled while researching?

To be honest I cannot even participate in this discussion as I have so little knowledge of it.

Not saying you but it is obvious that many here just google something and then spout it off as if it is something they knew all along.

It just comes across as to many self proclaimed experts. Just my opinion your milage may vary.

There are definitely history buffs and biblical scholars and poltical anaylysts among us and even some magicians, but I truly believe that no one here is an expert in all of these things and what they do is google and spout what they read.
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
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