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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Not very magical, still... » » The press and the Gifford shooting (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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landmark
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On 2011-01-12 17:25, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On 2011-01-12 15:18, landmark wrote:
Dershowitz has been thoroughly discredited as a plagiarist


Maybe he'll be on a ticket as VP in '12!

Actually, Lobo you might enjoy following the story. I don't have the patience now to look up the links but Google Dershowitz and Plagiarism and you'll find lots. A really slippery character IMHO.
landmark
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On 2011-01-12 16:53, Woland wrote:

To some people, such as Mrs. Woland I might add, the presence of a trustworthy armed man who she knows can reliably hit a target is downright comforting.

Regarding the rifle carrying African-American previously mentioned, the AP reported:

Quote:
Phoenix police said the gun-toters at Monday's event, including the man carrying an AR-15 semi-automatic rifle slung over his shoulder, didn't need permits. No crimes were committed, and no one was arrested.

The man with the rifle declined to be identified but told The Arizona Republic that he was carrying the assault weapon because he could. "In Arizona, I still have some freedoms," he said.


I think that confirms my recollection of his peaceful intentions.

Woland

What part of his statement confirms his peaceful intentions? Sounds pretty much like "None of your gd business" to me. I think even Mrs. Woland might find him somewhat rude. Checking with Mrs. Landmark, she thought it was more than rude, it was aggressive.
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On 2011-01-12 21:52, landmark wrote:
Quote:
On 2011-01-12 17:25, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On 2011-01-12 15:18, landmark wrote:
Dershowitz has been thoroughly discredited as a plagiarist


Maybe he'll be on a ticket as VP in '12!

Actually, Lobo you might enjoy following the story. I don't have the patience now to look up the links but Google Dershowitz and Plagiarism and you'll find lots. A really slippery character IMHO.


You're right...I just read a quick version. Definitely Movie of the Week stuff.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On 2011-01-12 22:02, landmark wrote:
Quote:
On 2011-01-12 16:53, Woland wrote:

To some people, such as Mrs. Woland I might add, the presence of a trustworthy armed man who she knows can reliably hit a target is downright comforting.

Regarding the rifle carrying African-American previously mentioned, the AP reported:

Quote:
Phoenix police said the gun-toters at Monday's event, including the man carrying an AR-15 semi-automatic rifle slung over his shoulder, didn't need permits. No crimes were committed, and no one was arrested.

The man with the rifle declined to be identified but told The Arizona Republic that he was carrying the assault weapon because he could. "In Arizona, I still have some freedoms," he said.


I think that confirms my recollection of his peaceful intentions.

Woland

What part of his statement confirms his peaceful intentions? Sounds pretty much like "None of your gd business" to me. I think even Mrs. Woland might find him somewhat rude. Checking with Mrs. Landmark, she thought it was more than rude, it was aggressive.


Which part confirms his "real intention" to use violence to achieve his agenda? Maybe he wanted to demonstrate that law abiding citizens can walk around with legal guns in public without triggering (pun intended) the apocalypse.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
Destiny
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Only the police can walk round with guns here, and that excites no public debate of any kind.
MagicSanta
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The Black Panthers did that and got California laws changed.....the open gun totin'.
landmark
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On 2011-01-12 22:12, LobowolfXXX wrote:


Which part confirms his "real intention" to use violence to achieve his agenda? Maybe he wanted to demonstrate that law abiding citizens can walk around with legal guns in public without triggering (pun intended) the apocalypse.

Do you believe that? Do you think the Secret Service/police should have left it at that?
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Landmark, there was someone with an open weapon at a place where the secret service was responsible for security? I'm not challenging I'm just not really following all this. I could see the police tolerating it but never the secret service. Unless there were serious changes in policy any perceived threat to the president etc is not acceptable to those folks.
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Quote:
On 2011-01-12 22:45, landmark wrote:
Quote:
On 2011-01-12 22:12, LobowolfXXX wrote:


Which part confirms his "real intention" to use violence to achieve his agenda? Maybe he wanted to demonstrate that law abiding citizens can walk around with legal guns in public without triggering (pun intended) the apocalypse.

Do you believe that? Do you think the Secret Service/police should have left it at that?


What the Secret Service and/or police "should" do is above my pay grade; I think it's reasonable to infer, though, that if he suffered no consequences, he probably wasn't demonstrating a real intention to use violence.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
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Quote:
On 2011-01-12 22:52, MagicSanta wrote:
Landmark, there was someone with an open weapon at a place where the secret service was responsible for security? I'm not challenging I'm just not really following all this. I could see the police tolerating it but never the secret service. Unless there were serious changes in policy any perceived threat to the president etc is not acceptable to those folks.

Presumably this is the story y'all are talking about. Contrary to what someone said earlier, I do not recall any 'cropped' pictures. I think it was plain from the start that the guy in question was African-American (not sure why that matters though).

http://articles.cnn.com/2009-08-17/polit......POLITICS

About security, mentioned in the above article is this:

U.S. Secret Service spokesman Ed Donovan acknowledged the incidents in New Hampshire and Arizona, but said he was not aware of any other recent events where protesters attended with open weapons. He said there was no indication that anyone had organized the incidents. Asked whether the individuals carrying weapons jeopardized the safety of the president, Donovan said, "Of course not."

The individuals would never have gotten in close proximity to the president, regardless of any state laws on openly carrying weapons, he said. A venue is considered a federal site when the Secret Service is protecting the president and weapons are not allowed on a federal site, he added.
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
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I believe Arizona passsed a concealed carry law in 2010 that allows anyone who can legally purchase a handgun to carry it concealed.
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
MagicSanta
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I agree, the gun guys would never had gotten into the event with the secret service. The guy being black just makes it sexier for the story, he's a gun lovin' anti Obama black dude, that is good stuff for the press.

The first time I saw people totin' rifles was in Florida coming out of a Sears. It flipped me out and when I asked a guard about it he said they were coming in to make sure they got the right ammo in the hunting department. I never liked being around openly carried weapons. If I can't see 'em fine.
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Unless I am mistaken, as of this summer, a specific permit is no longer required in Arizona in order to carry a firearm, although permits are still available to residents who wish to exercise a reciprocal right to carry in other states that recognize Arizona'z permits.

Woland
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On 2011-01-12 15:26, MagicSanta wrote:
I've not been following this since I didn't care for all the bs involved with the stories. I do have one question, initially they said he had a 9mm semi auto pistol, is that all he used? He did one hell of a lot of damage with a pistol, ...

I've seen some articles in the papers this week about Glock, the popular handgun invented by a former curtain-rod maker from Austria. How the gun was created, how it won over America, etc. Rather interesting stuff, actually. Also, apparently some models of Glocks can retail for $500+ and cost less than $100 to make. So it must be a quite profitable company. However, I think it is privately held.

(BTW, according to the articles below, JL had a 33-round clip (not 31 as someone said earlier) with his Glock.)

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/con......5280.htm

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/con......5929.htm

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/worl......1871531/
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
MagicSanta
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33 rounds for a handgun, wow. Last time I had to qualify we used 9mm with a 14 round clip but we only put 13, they said always go one less to reduce the chance of jamming. I'm not a gun nut and don't follow them at all but that is a huge clip.
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Yea but it misses the point. I could have had a billion round MAGAZINE NOT CLIP and would have not been a danger to anyone. The failing was in missing the warning signs. The guy was a nut, it is as simple as that. Everyone wants to spin this to get their particular point across and it sickens me.
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MagicSanta
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I agree with that. I just was wondering if he had multiple weapons or clips or was just an amazing shot. I don't have guns but I'm not in favor of banning them. That kid could have filled a jar full of gas and tossed it and killed people, he could have just drove a car into them. I had just never heard of a clip larger than 14 rounds.
balducci
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On 2011-01-15 18:00, MagicSanta wrote:

I agree with that. I just was wondering if he had multiple weapons or clips or was just an amazing shot. I don't have guns but I'm not in favor of banning them. That kid could have filled a jar full of gas and tossed it and killed people, he could have just drove a car into them. I had just never heard of a clip larger than 14 rounds.

Sure, also agreed. I posted the Glock articles because I remembered what you had said and because I thought what they said about the Glock and its history was interesting. (And I thought the Bruce Willis story was funny.)

But whether someone is pro-gun or anti-gun, it is still a fact that magazine size did have some significance in how this shooting incident played out. As one of the article notes: "Loughner was wrestled to the ground by onlookers ONLY when he PAUSED to insert a fresh magazine. If he had been forced to reload sooner, the odds are good there would be fewer victims." [I capitalized two words for emphasis.] I don't think anyone can reasonably argue with that. It's a fairly objective statement of what happened. If he had had a larger magazine, no doubt the victim count would have been higher. That's a statement of fact. Thankfully, there is no such thing as a "billion round magazine".

Anyway, while I wouldn't go through trouble to buy a Glock here in Canada I'd be happy to test one out in the States if I ever happen by a gun show or something. And the forthcoming book "Glock and its influence in America" might be a good read. I don't know if you noticed this in the article, but even Gabrielle Gifford is a Glock owner.
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
MagicSanta
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Darn it, now I need to get me a glock.
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I like the way that "BLAME THE RIGHT" failed, now it is guns.

I don't think you can say one way or another if the ammo had anything to do with it. Reason? All he would have needed was another gun. Why is it when there is a problem like this people center on what they want banned or try to push an agenda? Nonsense. (not anyone here)

This happened because one nutty guy was ****ed. (A guy who was known nutty to the police, who REFUSE to release records of multiple contacts with the guy!) This nut job was ON THE RADAR and nothing was done. Maybe before the Sherrif balmes anyone he should see what his department may have done to prevent this tragedy in the first place. Maybe if this nut job did't have a gun in the first place, maybe if he was watched after all the incidents and so forth this might not have happened.

Is the solution to punish every law abiding citizen who owns a gun because of one nut job?

Yea he paused to reload. IF he had been forced to reload ODDS ARE THAT there would be fewer victims. As long as we are playing the capital for emphasis game it can be done this way as well. Nobody knows.

As I said tragedy is what this was. No doubt. Tragic that such little attention goes out to some victims, and so much to others. ALL injured or dead are equally horrifying.

What this angry nut job did was beyond horrible. To use it as political fodder to make points is sickening. (NOT anyone here mind you.) Each side is guilty of it. I think when we give up freedom because of the actions of a few nuts (whether they are terrorists or nut jobs like this) we are making a serious mistake.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
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