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keeblem Inner circle Essex, UK 1167 Posts |
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On 2011-01-12 13:25, ku7uk3 wrote: Stephen, I would stop right there. Seriously, you need to think about what you're saying before you put it in writing. Mark PS You also need to remember that this is an open forum. A potential customer may read your comments above and if they did I doubt if you would ever be hired again. |
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LBP MAGIC Veteran user 374 Posts |
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On 2011-01-12 13:29, ku7uk3 wrote: That is what planning is all about. I never put anything above my family. NOTHING. I also know that I have to work to support them. I also know it is important to celebrate, recreate, party what have you. But that is where planning comes in, so I don't ever have to make a choice between work and family. Get what I am saying? |
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LBP MAGIC Veteran user 374 Posts |
Oh and if me saying I cant go on this unexpected get away with the family because I have to work breaks up my family. Well then I didn't really have a family to begin with did I?
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dearwiseone Inner circle Portland, OR 1143 Posts |
Stephen,
I think you do need to re-evaluate what you're saying. Nobody has said they're putting the needs of their clients before the needs of their family. You're presenting this as a win-lose situation. Here's the win-win situation we're talking about. You take holiday with your family (planned far in advance) AND you take care of your clients. If your family hasn't had a holiday in ten years, then plan one (with plenty of time, during a set of dates that you don't have any shows) and go take a holiday! Have fun! You also said "You all put work and money above the needs of you family." Following through on jobs, being a professional, WORKING when you've committed to, is what allows you to earn money and support your family! Go back and read that again. It's the work that earns the money, that allows you to take your family on vacation. Money doesn't have to come before family, work doesn't have to come before family. They can both come together! Stephen, I'm not a slave to my clients. That being said, I follow through on my word. I also take vacations with my family! That doesn't mean I "refuse" to go on holiday with them. Sure, it means that if they get a last-minute great deal somewhere and I can't go, that's life. But that doesn't mean I've missed all opportunities to go! I can still go on the vacations that I've planned ahead of time, during which I have no performances. You're sure defending your friend strongly! I think he needs to make up his mind and do what's best for him. We've offered our suggestions! Good luck! |
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Donald Dunphy Inner circle Victoria, BC, Canada 7563 Posts |
I have friends who have day jobs. They have to plan their vacation weeks for the next year, this year. So, my one friend booked her vacation weeks for April, July, and December 2011, while in December 2010.
So, it's not just performers that plan early for vacations. They do this because they are keeping a commitment to their employer, much like performers keep their commitments to their customers. It almost reads like a teenager trying to justify playing hooky from school. - Donald P.S. Winning a vacation is hardly the same as planning a vacation, as so it doesn't carry the same importance. Simply plan your dates, like most regular people do.
Donald Dunphy is a Victoria Magician, British Columbia, Canada.
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LBP MAGIC Veteran user 374 Posts |
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On 2011-01-12 13:43, Donald Dunphy wrote: That is normal! Most employees have to tell their families no for a lot of things. No I cant go to lunch today I have to work. No I cant go shopping today, my boss wont let me off work. No I cant go on vacation this week I cant get off work. No I cant go to my kids program at school today I have to work. Life happens we cant be everywhere all the time and the family units are not breaking down for these reasons. |
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Kent Wong Inner circle Edmonton, Alberta, Canada 2458 Posts |
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On 2011-01-12 13:25, ku7uk3 wrote: We are not slaves to our clients. We are PROFESSIONALS. Professionals fulfill the committments they make to their clients. Professionals support their families by fulfilling these committments. By planning ahead, you don't get into these situations. This shows respect for your clients and it shows respect for your family. That's what "being a man" is all about. Kent
"Believing is Seeing"
<BR>______________________ <BR> <BR>www.kentwongmagic.com |
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Red Shadow Inner circle 1788 Posts |
I think to help Mark, I should remind people this is a hypothetical situation. I don't have a wife or kids. But when I do, it should be noted that they would come before my clients (or myself).
When your family has commitments as well, and they book off time from their job for a holiday. And you only have a couple of shows, say four like in the example, it stands to reason that its more convenient for everybody for you to simply ring up another entertainer and pass the work onto them. The client is allowed to go on holiday. I don't think their boss likes the fact that they are gone for several weeks, but this is life. Most client I think would understand that. I also get passed on work all the time; some are from commission agencies who take the job and then find an entertainer to fill it. Surely in this case, that is all the entertainer is doing, taking the roll as an agency for those 4 shows. As long as the client has an entertainer at their party - why does it matter if its you or not at the show if it is the difference between supporting your family or them? I get that you will probably not get any repeat work from those clients, that's understood. But at this point of the conversation, I'm more concerned with the fact that some of you are willing to cancel on client if the money or gig is better elsewhere. I would never do that. I have turned down paying gigs for a free charity show because I committed to it. But from what I have read above, some of you would willingly cancel on a client if 'something better came along'. But look down an someone who would cancel to join their family on a family vacation? And planning is always nice and prefer ed, but some opportunities come up at the last minute or go beyond what you can plan for. This scenario is more about that. Like the winning of a holiday. |
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Donald Dunphy Inner circle Victoria, BC, Canada 7563 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-01-12 13:29, ku7uk3 wrote: This comment shows a life with a family out of balance, much more than a performer who plans his vacations. As opposed to dropping work for a last minute vacation opportunity... the only vacation he's "planned" in ten years... which again, you acknowledged wasn't really planned. - Donald
Donald Dunphy is a Victoria Magician, British Columbia, Canada.
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LBP MAGIC Veteran user 374 Posts |
Who said they would cancel for a better paying gig?
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Bill Knight Veteran user UK 318 Posts |
Back in April 2010, I had a mid-week holiday to Mallorca which, for reasons you will understand in a minute, I want to point out is an island just off the coast of spain. I flew out on the Sunday evening and was due to fly back on the Thursday as I had shows booked for the weekend. I contacted all of that weekends clients to let them them know that I was going away, that I would not have my phone with me but I would be back Thurday evening if anything had come up from their end. On my way to Palma airport for the flight home, my friend, who lives there, got a phone call to tell us about the Volcano in Iceland and that all flight were cancelled.
I wasn't able to contact any of my clients and I missed the entire weekend because I was stuck on an island with no flights. I got home late the next week, contacted my clients and every single one of them was totally forgiving & understanding because, as I had told them my travel plans, they had all realised that I would be stuck. THIS IS THE ONLY TIME I HAVE EVER LET A HOLIDAY STOP ME FROM HONOURING A BOOKING!! Steve: Make your mind up mate, first you said "A scenario has come up where I might be going on holiday in six week times for example. I have four shows booked during that time and so need to move them over to another entertainer." Then you said "I use vacation as an example. I too would never cancel a show because of a holiday, though I do know several entertainers that do." Which is it? I don't think that anyone is saying not to have a holiday, just not to take bookings for the time you wish to be away. You then have a go at those who advise you to honour the bookings by telling them that they are risking losing their family by not spending time with them .............. This from a guy who says he hasn't had a holiday in 10 years. I will let Ken defend himself but do read his post again, especially the bit where he says that he has always JOKED about it. Finally, do what you feel comfortable doing but don't ask for peoples opinions and then blast them because they differ from yours. Rant over Have fun Bill P.S. When I go away now, I always take a list of contact info with me, lesson learned lol
Growing old is compulsory, growing up is optional
www.magicbill.co.uk |
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Mark Boody Illusionist Inner circle 1366 Posts |
Your word is your word. It's all about integrity. If you don't have integrity, what else can you stand on?!
Mark
Only he who can see the invisible can do the impossible. Frank L. Gaines
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Payne Inner circle Seattle 4571 Posts |
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On 2011-01-12 14:05, Mark Boody Illusionist wrote: Well in this case it appears to be a soapbox
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
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Bill Knight Veteran user UK 318 Posts |
Or very thin ice
Growing old is compulsory, growing up is optional
www.magicbill.co.uk |
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Flymo Regular user 151 Posts |
Steve, I don't think it's really fair to expect your clients to pay a fee for canceling while giving yourself leeway to do it for your own stated reasons.
I've changed all sorts of personal plans to meet the needs of my clients; I see it as part of my job. My family and friends understand this and are fine with it as they know I'll make it up to them. This is the reputation I want to create as an entertainer. The whole 'slave' argument is a bit extreme. Working as an entertainer has allowed me the time and money to do lots of really great things in life. It just requires a bit of planning ahead. Also, surely a holiday won as a prize would let you choose when to leave. It is worrying to me that you would post something like this on a public forum, easily accessible by your potential clients. |
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Mindpro Eternal Order 10585 Posts |
"So wait, your putting the clients wants, against the need of your own family and children?
It sounds to me that all you guys are slaves to your client. You should be men and support your family. If you don't, that's the kind of decisions which usually break families up. You wife and children want you to go on holiday with them, and you refuse just because you have some shows booked which your not even willing to pass onto another entertainer. Seriously guys, you have lose self-respect and with decisions like that, you risk losing your family." I am outraged at this mentality. This is not the mentality of a professional any many levels. I have been a full-time entertainer for 35 years now, performed over 6000 shows and have NEVER once canceled or even considered canceling a performance - PERIOD. A professional would never think otherwise. Yes there were family things - birthdays, graduations, weddings, surgeries, funerals, and many others, but unless I'm physically unable (as Ken said by being in the hospital) or a true act of God, I've made a commitment, signed a contract and have given my word. It's a business transaction. Others are acting, spending, promoting and making plans based on your commitment. Then the whole idea of "having another entertainer cover for you" is sooooo wrong on so many levels. You seem to view your talent and show as if it's simply replaceable or interchangable with any other performer. This is absolutely appalling. It was me, my show, my talent, ability and unique show that they were sold on in the first place, why on earth would I jeopardize that client, our relationship and any future bookings and earnings to give this to another performer? I just can't fathom that. This entire thread is an utter lack of unprofessionalism and amature mentalities. As the supporter and provider of my family my performing is just like any other provider that has to go to work. My family completely understands and would never expect me to "take off work for a vacation (holiday) or any other family event. As others have said here you are self-employed, you have control of your schedule. I have to make commitments for gigs and tours sometime a year to eighteen months in advance. The first thing I do when I'm offered dates is check my schedule if I need t0 work around any family events. My family also knows to check my schedule for planning or scheduling any family events they wish me to be a part of. It's as simple as that. Just because you are a paid performer, have purchased some props and materials and have a web site, does not make you a professional. Professionalism is a level of attitude and experience that is obviously not attained by everyone. |
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Red Shadow Inner circle 1788 Posts |
So how far in advance do you take a booking? I have clients calling me wanting to book two years ahead. All magic conventions and lectures at clubs for example are done that far ahead. Planning can only go so far and you have to think about your families commitments as well. Most people in a real job have to take all their holidays before the end of April due to losing it because of the next tax year starting. They only find out this with short notice due to everyone at the office wanting to take advanced of that holiday time. If our partners are given the opportunity to go on holiday and want us to join them, they do not have the option to plan with us. Planning so far in advance for everything like your say is sometimes not always possible. However I agree that it is something we should all strive for.
But like volcanoes erupting, floods destroying the home and family illness. You cannot plan for events. Just because it is a holiday situation we are discussing, does not make it somehow less significant to breaking your leg. Mental health, physical stress and keeping a family together are vital parts of staying healthy. Some bookings take place so far ahead that you cannot plan for things to suit that situation. What if you get the opportunity to work on a TV show due to be shot in six months time – but to do it you would have to cancel a one-hour children’s show that was booked a year ago. Do you do the TV show that would pay thousands and bring in tons of publicity, or do you say no to the TV show and commit to the one-hour show you committed to? Judging from your past posts, I know what most of you are about to say, although I doubt any of you would honestly do it if the situations was made available to you. Steve P.S. On planning; I have a friend who is a magician. He suffers from fits and upon having one, is unable to work for three days (if he is lucky). Should he take any bookings? He cannot plan for when those fits will happen, but he knows they will. It is a random thing. If he has a fit, he will be letting the client down because of illness. But knowing that there was a slim chance of having one, was he wrong to even take the booking in the first place? |
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Ken Northridge Inner circle Atlantic City, NJ 2392 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-01-12 13:59, Bill Knight wrote: You are just joking also about the need to defend myself, aren’t you? Well, for the record, I just joke like this with my fellow entertainers. Those who know me know I will never be asked to be on Leno or Letterman. I doubt the Hippity Hop Rabbits will be in demand by their audience. I would never joke about this with a client. That wouldn’t be funny. Perhaps, its not even funny here!
"Love is the real magic." -Doug Henning
www.KenNorthridge.com |
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Bill Knight Veteran user UK 318 Posts |
Sorry Ken, that was not a dig at you at all and if it came across that way, I am very sorry. I just didn't want to step on your toes in responding to an attack on your post.
Steve: please don't try to equate illness with wanting a holiday.
Growing old is compulsory, growing up is optional
www.magicbill.co.uk |
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Ken Northridge Inner circle Atlantic City, NJ 2392 Posts |
Funny, I totally missed Steven’s response to my post. I understand now Bill. My response could easily have been for his post as well.
Quote:
On 2011-01-12 13:29, ku7uk3 wrote: Steven, Providing money for my family is putting my family first! Having said that, I understand what you’re trying to say. Some do not get the balance right. But by canceling a booking for such a reason will probably do damage to your business in the long run, thereby hurting you and your family.
"Love is the real magic." -Doug Henning
www.KenNorthridge.com |
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