Steve,

If that's what he's saying then okay. Thanks for clarifying.

Regards

No not Bob either. I've obviously not read the thread that (might have?) prompted Iains post.

Davit:

I did not mean it to read that you did, just that with what has been posted here in the past 24 hours, it seems to read that way. It has been disappointing and discouraging to read those posts. When you come across them, I'm sure you will see how your post can be taken as other than what you meant.

Tony

I think the thing to keep in mind is that what iain is advocating mustn't be used to shut down debate, but it certainly implies that debeate should be carried out in respectful manner.

On the subject of idiots and beginners - they will never be able to just differ to the opinions of those with more experience. It would be intellectually dishonest for them to do so. I'm afraid that with a forum such as this which is open to rank amateurs there will be a steady flow of people that express views that are contrary to the concensus. I'm not really sure how to resolve that. People that don't like it could stop posting/reading - or just accept the fact that such posters will never dissapear.

They don't know how much they don't know, and don't want to hear when told.

(agreeing with Davit)

Right...

A RESPECTFUL manner.

...

Don't just agree with everything just cause someone told you too.

I remember listen to Bob say "Anyone that tells you there are rules in Mentalism is full of ****!"

Anybody that is intelligent can understand what that means.

You DON'T have to agree... just be RESPECTFUL about it.

Didn't ya momma raise ya rite?

I believe that Britain might very well be suffering from hordes of mentalism beginners using certain 'tools' of mentalism indiscriminately. The tools that have become mainstays of a mentalism act. When the spectator(s) see it coming, they're impatient and want to express, 'ugh, here we go again...'

The kids might be dead on about some of this stuff. I don't know, and I don't think that any of us know until we get into that situation. These British audiences might just hate mentalism by the time that a working pro gets to them. Maybe BECAUSE of Eshla, LOL! But, still, a preconceived notion formed by a large group of people at any show might spell disaster for even the most seasoned pro.

All that I know is that when I was a kid, no matter how foolproof or perfect my technique and methods were, the grabby kids at school made it REALLY tough to perform.

This is why I'm usually more likely to gravitate to acts that started out younger. They've been held to the fire of being tormented by their peers at school, and this forges your ability, way beyond what you can do as an adult beginning magic. I don't care what anyone thinks, the act of performing for kids AS a kid is one of the toughest things that you can do! Seriously.

Getting back to your original question... I'd say, learn a great equivoque, like FWOO. Learn a great P*&k like SBO. Learn a large group effect like Inconceivable. Learn a great Design dupe. Learn a great mentalism card effect that can be done anywhere with any deck and no setup, like Two Cold Caans. And learn Hoy Book Test. Also, get good with the NW. I'm not saying to buy my stuff. I'm just giving my examples the spectrum of the kind of stuff that I do.

Get Amateur Magicians Handbook by Henry Hay, and study that mental magic section. If you have the soul of an artist, this will be just about all that you need. Then, you can use the basic principles to invent your own stuff.

Don't claim real powers. Don't do pre-show. Don't repeat effects for the same group. Try to find different places to practice on people, because you want to save quite a bit of your stuff with your mates for the high school talent show. This is the hardest thing to do.

I actually like seeing the kids nipping at the elders... keeps em alive and on their toes, LOL! And I know that Bob can take it. I just might have used up too much of his patience with my views on the pre-show post.

Jimmy Fingers
a 47 year old who usually questions the gods like a 13 year old

Hey Jimmy!

While I don't agree with everything you say (just as you don't always agree with me), your arguments are obviously the result of experience and serious consideration of the issues.

You're right on target about the difficulty of being a kid trying to perform for his peers. I guess that's what prepared me for the long stretch during which I primarily worked in gin mills and biker bars. After that, it's pretty hard to find an audience you CAN'T work for.

Good thoughts,

Bob

My faves have be nudist colonies and gigs for gypsies. One agent told me that I was one of the few acts that a gypsy family paid at all, because the women were fortune tellers, and my material is all under the radar!

Ha ha! I actually did do a nudist colony once! (no kidding - at least I found another way to ditch my thumbtip.)

Exposure!

Hi there IAIN. It is good to see you back on here mate! Let's all keep it positive and help each other however we can. @IAIN – If you send me your email I will send you some of what I shared when you were away.

I am hobbyist at this, and professional at something else. My totally-unrelated-to-mentalism profession also has forums with hobbyists and rarely do working pros post. The same thing has, by and large, happened there as here: A lot of pros are alienated. So I think part of what IAIN is saying is built into human nature as well as flaws in the format. Sitting behind a computer, people write things that they would never say face-to-face. Since we only see words on a screen, we do not see the pain and anger on people's faces that we have caused. And since most people are not professional writers, people often come across in writing in a way that is totally unintended and misunderstandings result. On the forums related to my profession, I know a lot of the posters personally, and know of a tendency of some to post while in various states of inebriation, whose words would have been dismissed outright if they could be seen slurring their speech and staggering. So the format is imperfect.

I for one have greatly benefited from the posts of pros, some of whom have since left and some of whom remain here. And there are others who are not pros whose opinions I respect too. I find myself weeding through a pile of crap to get to a nugget of gold here and there, but gold is still gold.

There are and have been very important creators in magic and mentalism who have not been working pros, and there were a lot more mentalists in the 50's and 60's than Dunninger and hand full of others, whose names are a lot more obscure, and who contributed much less to the art than Curry or T.A. Waters.

"above all else – I have reached out and asked or help from some of these pro's that have been derided, belittled and ignored... do you know what happened?

They were all charming, helpful, and patient... they also helped me, offered their time, patience and honest feedback..."

I have too, and my experience has largely been the same, but I have also found some to be quite protective of their 'babies' and quite unable to take any even hint of criticism or the suggestion that another way might work too. Indeed, Christian Painter wrote in a fine essay in Protoplasm about cruise line that won't hire mentalists because of poor ratings of past acts, a club that that gave didn't like to book mentalists because they are boring and several other such examples. Quite amazing to me was that Painter recounted on incident where the outfit doing the hiring claimed that they felt that the powers that the last mentalist displayed were real... but he was still boring. I would have thought that witnessing miraculous powers would have been inherently NOT boring, and it must have been quite a lack of something to bore people as you demonstrate impossible phenomena. I'll bet that, to a person, these mentalists thought their acts "wowed" them.

Our goal should be to work together to be better pros and better hobbyists. Forums could help.. or hurt. Despite their weaknesses, they have helped me overall.

Well said that man.
T.

What a joke!Why don't the people who have thrown their arms up in disgust and left this forum stay away?
The majority of people who left here for the "other place" are creative amateurs who have no idea what it is like to support a family from performing. They blame amateurs for the decay of mentalism but it was not so long ago that Jim Callahan was making rude comments directed at Jimmy Fingers! Give me a break! Bob Cassidy is a professional who has the experience to back up his advice and most people I can see are very keen to hear what Bob has to say. Very little disrespect! And, Bob is still here!
You say you are passionate about mentalism, do you think you are more passionate about mentalism than Eshla? I am sick and tired of people shooting down Eshla, particularly when it is by another amateur riding on their high horse who has very little experience but the support of their buddies to back it up. Those guys that "left" are the ones that are producing all the worthless ebooks that you don't need! Personally, I think this forum has improved since a lot of these pontificating amateurs have left. All that matters is that we share a passion for mentalism and try and help each other, not look down upon one another.
If the people who have left want to come back, I think THEY are the one's who should come back with an attiude of mutual respect! Not some garbage about how they used to be here and how everything has declined since they left! How are we meant to welcome people who don't do this with welcome arms!?

I've missed your face Iain

AussieM,

Not sure who your post is directed too... but I'll bite.

"Why don't the people who have thrown their arms up in disgust and left this forum stay away?"

A lot of them have. I learned a lot back when Banachek and Richard O. were posting regularly. Don't know if they "threw their hands up in disgust ot not" but they certainly do not participate like they once did. I rememember great equivoque thread with Dan Harlan, he's not around much either. I could name a quite a few more.

"They blame amateurs for the decay of mentalism but it was not so long ago that Jim Callahan was making rude comments directed at Jimmy Fingers!"

Not sure what thread this was on, or your take on "rude" but this has happened many many times between pros here and elsewhere, no need to name names and Jim has been on the receiving end of a lot of rudeness too. But he can take it.

"Bob Cassidy is a professional who has the experience to back up his advice and most people I can see are very keen to hear what Bob has to say. "

Bob is a terrific resource. I think most everyone is thankful for his humor and advice.

"Very little disrespect!" He frequently reminds everyone of his biker bar buddies. Nobody dares.

"You say you are passionate about mentalism, do you think you are more passionate about mentalism than Eshla?"

I didn't say that... and I don't know how you would keep score on this with me or anyone else. In my case, he might well be more passionate than me, but maybe we'll see if his passion holds up as well is mine 30 years down the road.

"All that matters is that we share a passion for mentalism and try and help each other, not look down upon one another." I agree.

IT? You won't learn much about mentalism from using an invisible thread...

And I think the same respect goes the other way. If you are a "Pro", don't belittle someone who isn't just because they aren't a "Pro". Being a pro does not give you license to be a mean and nasty to someone you perceive to be a hobbyist or amateur. Most of us are here because we have a genuine interest.

Everyone just needs to be respectful of everyone here.

Aussiemagic, I like it!!! Great post to even it out...

Frankly, I wasn't really sure that I even existed until Callahan informed me that I'm a mere mortal, nowhere near his level of deity, LOL!!! Until you've been backed into a corner by Jim/Jack/Raymond and whatever other entities might arise, you've never experienced true initiation!

Non-professional amateurs have inspired me more than pros, for the most part, because I'm shooting for all original stuff, not the garden variety. It was an amateur hobbyist who helped me at the Darwin club meeting back in Vegas in 1991 when I was working the reel-less, gimmick-less silk through mic stand that I'm pretty well known for now. Scott Emo isn't a working pro, but his input and participation in the Magellan Master Levitation were vital in it becoming the piece that it is now. Kenneth Havard is not a heavy duty mentalist, but his input was essential when I was hammering out Inconceivable-without him, I don't think that I would have ever held my expectation of the routine to as high of a level as it has achieved. I could go down the list of guys who helped with these and more extremely uniquely conceived effects, and I might be here all night long.

Sometimes, the old guard is knowledgeable about tools that are already out there, and they are great and sound at their fundamentals, but they've never been of ANY assistance with my new, cutting edge concepts, because they're usually too busy poo-pooing them... If not verbally, you can at least see it and feel it in their midst. And the guys that are universally held and regarded as experts have flaws like the rest of us. Blind spots. But, maybe, they're just really good at getting booked. That's got value for me, and I respect it, but I always make sure to never equate 'getting booked' with being the best act submitted or available for the gig.

I'm not saying that the old guard can't be creative. I've just never received much help from them.

Basically, you can fawn over the old guard, but that can also limit you by only seeing value in 'that important guy from somewhere else...'

Jimmy
slowly becoming that old guard, trying to stay capable of wonder