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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-02-10 15:15, Magnus Eisengrim wrote: Of course. But the point is that Woland says that what other societies need to be successful is to apply US principles and not US technology. That is, do as we say, not do as we do. So while he admits that US wealth was acquired through slave labor, he rightly condemns it for others. However, he seems to be in denial about the other sources of US wealth which are based on the exploitation and intimidation of other countries (colonialism, imperialism). Until he deals with that denial, the rest is just talk. The ironic thing is that countries that attempt to follow the ideals of US principles have time and again been crushed by the actions of the US. For all the talk about democracy, the US has time and time again supported anti-democratic dictators and movements: Batista, Trujillo, Somoza, Pinochet, the Argentine Junta, the Shah of Iran, Sadaam Hussein, the apartheid regime in South Africa, the military regime in Pakistan, the death squads in El Salvador, the dictators of Haiti, the dictator of Equatorial Guinea, the continued support of Mubarak and Suleiman, to name some. To be clear: the wealth of the United States is based on the oppression of millions around the world. Saying to others that they can enjoy the same if only they would purchase the same Velvet Glove, is to deny the Iron Fist inside it.
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts |
Woland said "Why allow intolerant barbarians to establish enclaves in which our tolerant culture is flouted or ignored?"
Please read my reply above to John if you haven't. Denial of one's own barbarism is quite to the point. And again I'm waiting to hear: 1) What laws against rape, acid burning, flogging and the other horrors you've scared up, have been flouted? Please show me one such case where any of these laws were not prosecuted in the name of multiculturalism? On the other hand, I'm quite ready to show where such actions were not prosecuted because of the non-acceptance of other cultures. 2) Do you think it would be okay for Haiti to invade the US with a military force, install a new government, and set up sweatshops for the good of the people in Haiti? Did you think it was okay when the US did the same to Haiti? 3) Re: Sarkozy and Merkel: No, it's not surprising that dominant cultures are worried about the cultures that they have exploited, and seek to diminish their rights with some pseudo-explanation. That's been going on for a long long time.
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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Pakar Ilusi Inner circle 5777 Posts |
"You can believe in stones brother. Just don't throw them at me."
- Wafa Sultan - I believe in secularism btw...
"Dreams aren't a matter of Chance but a matter of Choice." -DC-
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Woland Special user 680 Posts |
Dear Pakar Ilusi,
Wonderful quote. That is exactly the point, isn't it? Woland |
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Woland Special user 680 Posts |
Dear landmark,
Thank you for an excellent exercise in marxist-leninist agitprop. There is no way for the United States to win in your game. If we work with governments that are in place, we are accused of propping them up; if we oppose them, we are accused of subverting national liberation. It's easy to make a list of dictators that were on "our side," just as it would be easy to make a list of dictators on the "other side" -- most of the world's governments have been tyrannies. The dictators you list surely did many bad things, but the countries on the marxist-leninist anti-American side of the equation were far worse, and killed hundreds of millions of innocent people. We have to take the world as we find it. You are evidently unaware of the situation that exists in the Western European countries, where entire neighborhoods in Sweden, France, and Great Britain are off-limits to the police, and the inhabitants of these barbarian enclaves in fact practice honor killing of women and the often violent initimidation of homosexuals, Jews, Christians, and others they consider deviant. Yet you condemn the United States on the basis of a slavery which Americans ended at the cost in lives of 350,000 American fighting men -- 100,000 of them in battle, and much blood and treasure besides. We are not here to weigh the sins of mankind from the dawn history -- we have to deal with the problems that beset us today. One of those problems is a massive population shift into Europe from Near Asia and Africa -- a population shift that is more significant than the population shifts of the great Voelkerwanderung which followed the collapse of the Roman Empire. Western European civilization is being smothered by two factors: the influx of populations that are hostile to the Western tradition, and perhaps more importantly, by the actions of Europe's own trans-national, post-modern, multicultural elites who hate their own civilization, just as you do. I actually think that Europe will fall. This is the "going under" of the "Evening Lands" that Spengler foresaw. Somehow, however, I don't think you will enjoy seeing raped women flogged and stoned, or homosexuals hanged in the streets of the brave new multicultural Europe you so eagerly welcome. Woland |
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Pakar Ilusi Inner circle 5777 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-02-11 09:38, Woland wrote: It is, isn't it? Thanks Woland...
"Dreams aren't a matter of Chance but a matter of Choice." -DC-
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Natural Mystic Special user Atlanta, GA 509 Posts |
Woland,
"Yet you condemn the United States on the basis of a slavery which Americans ended at the cost in lives of 350,000 American fighting men -- 100,000 of them in battle, and much blood and treasure besides." 200,000 of those 350,000 American fighting men were black americans fighting for their own freedom. "The soldiers of the First South Carolina were only the first of tens of thousands of former slaves who fought for the Union cause. Despite discrimination throughout the war, African American troops distinguished themselves and were instrumental in the North's victory. Overall, about 180,000 blacks served in the Union army, and another 20,000 in the Union navy. Together, they made up about 15 percent of all Northern forces in the war. Of all the Union troops, the African American soldier was fighting for the most tangible of causes--freedom for himself and his people." http://www.civilwarhome.com/slavery.htm
"You never change the existing reality by
fighting it. Instead, create a new model that makes the old one obsolete." -- R. Buckminster Fuller |
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Woland Special user 680 Posts |
Thanks, NaturalMystic. You are of course correct.
The number of 350,000 I cited is however the number of the Union war dead. The total number of Union troops in the War Between the States was about 2,250,000. Woland |
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abc Inner circle South African in Taiwan 1081 Posts |
You make it sound like the the West has something to be proud of.
Let me think of some dates and places here. Jallianwala Bagh 1919. Croke Park 1920. Oh wait that is the Brits. Sorry. August 1945 Nagasaki. There are ALWAYS two sides to a story. What would the world be like if 1945 Nagasaki did not happen? You hate what the "muslims" do because you don't understand it and most people in the West can not fathom than someone actually follows something other than human rightarainism (nice word I should patent it) Muslims pray daily at exactly the same time. They should be commended for their resilience and discipline. The rest of us !@#$% and complain and argue and reason for the sake of intelectual rubbish at exactly the same time every day which is 24 hours a day. We should be commended too, right? |
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Woland Special user 680 Posts |
Dear abc,
You seem to have forgotten that the tens of millions of people in the world who are uprooting themselves and moving across geographies and cultures are moving to the West, not away from it. I have not mentioned anyone's religious beliefs. A person's religious beliefs are not at issue here. As Pakar Ilusi's quote from Wafa Sultan illustrated, no group's beliefs are the problem; the problem is the intolerant, violent, and barbaric behavior of certain groups of people. Woland |
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Magnus Eisengrim Inner circle Sulla placed heads on 1053 Posts |
The West has many things to be proud of: democracy, rule of law, medicine, art, disaster relief, to name a few obvious ones.
The West has many things for which to be ashamed: imperialism, economic exploitation, environmental degradation to name an obvious few. Progress will come more readily if we remember make the important distinctions. John
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned; The best lack all conviction, while the worst Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats |
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Pakar Ilusi Inner circle 5777 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-02-11 11:13, abc wrote: I was brought up a Muslim. Are you a Muslim abc? Commend them for their discipline? If you only knew. I will say this, nothing is more dangerous than absolute faith in the righteousness of your cause as spoken by your God. I will leave it at that. I don't want this thread to get banned.
"Dreams aren't a matter of Chance but a matter of Choice." -DC-
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ed rhodes Inner circle Rhode Island 2885 Posts |
Good, I agree with you on both your statement and your desire not to go any further due to possible banning.
And that attitude runs across the board for many different groups.
"...and if you're too afraid of goin' astray, you won't go anywhere." - Granny Weatherwax
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Woland Special user 680 Posts |
Thank you, Pakar Ilusi and Ed Rhodes. Perhaps we can return to the original subject. Let's step back a moment and consider:
Are there ANY practices AT ALL that you would not tolerate in a community of immigrants -whoever they might be- to your country -whatever it might be-? Are there ANY practices AT ALL that you would be willing publicly condemn even though they were accepted as normal by a community of people somewhere in the world? Cannibalism? Slavery? Human sacrifice? Anything at all? If there is anything at all that you would not tolerate, then we are not talking about philosophical differences here, we are just haggling about the price (as in the famous anecdote -undoubtedly apocryphal- about Winston Churchill at the charity banquet.) Woland |
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Magnus Eisengrim Inner circle Sulla placed heads on 1053 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-02-11 11:56, Woland wrote: I don't see the point of "community of immigrants". The real question is which practices are intolerable in our nations. John
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned; The best lack all conviction, while the worst Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats |
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Woland Special user 680 Posts |
Magnus,
I quite agree. I was just describing the reality to which President Sarkozy, Prime Minister Cameron, and Chancellor Merkel addressed themsevles regarding the failure of "multiculturalism." Woland |
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Magnus Eisengrim Inner circle Sulla placed heads on 1053 Posts |
Woland, that is why I brought it up. Cameron, Merkel and Sarkozy appear to be engaging in the age-old politics of "blame the immigrants for unemployment, crime, failing community spirit, sexually transmitted diseases, weather...." The failure, it seems to me, is in leadership, not in multiculturalism.
John
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned; The best lack all conviction, while the worst Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats |
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Woland Special user 680 Posts |
Magnus,
Where in their comments do you see any reference to those general problems? According to the Guardian: Quote:
State multiculturalism is a wrong-headed doctrine that has had disastrous results. It has fostered difference between communities," the Conservative leader said in a speech. He seems not to have mentioned "unemployment, crime, failing community spirit, sexually transmitted diseases, weather." Woland |
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Magnus Eisengrim Inner circle Sulla placed heads on 1053 Posts |
Well just infew excerpts in the links we h ave
Failing community spirit: "It has fostered difference between communities...And it has stopped us from strengthening our collective identity. Indeed, it has deliberately weakened it." Crime and Sexuality (granted not STI): "And, until recently, there was little investigation – despite the fact that it is likely that they may have been drugged, imprisoned, kidnapped and forced into an unwanted marriage on the other side of the world." For a few short excerpts, I'd say Cameron's speech fit fairly well. John
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned; The best lack all conviction, while the worst Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats |
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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts |
Woland, Either people are breaking laws or they are not; either a country efficiently brings those responsible to justice or not. To attribute that failure to multiculturalism is begging the question, and cynically appealing to racism.
I am fascinated and awed by the right's new found respect for homosexuals and women. Perhaps we can ban the Christian fundamentalist movements here too, and force them out of their enclaves. I eagerly await the passage by the right of the Equal Rights Amendment and a declaration of complete rights for homosexuals here in the US. As John has said there are two sides to the story, the good and the bad. What I challenge is your denial, and your American exceptionalism. And your pretty stories that if only other countries would just adopt US principles they would achieve the same. We tell stories to cover up the truth. IIRC the haggling quote is from George Bernard Shaw, that well-known socialist, not Churchill.
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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