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JonChase Loyal user Exeter, UK 225 Posts |
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dmkraig Inner circle 1949 Posts |
How is this an example of something that has gone "wrong?" Seems like you one induction didn't work and another did.
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mindpunisher Inner circle 6132 Posts |
Nothing goes wrong you just work with what comes up. And being "directive" in your manner and actions leading them to where you want them to go. I taught this to prestige car dealers and they broke sales records within two weeks.
One of the things they did when they were given the phrase " I am just looking" by potential customers was to respond by saying " that's great then you will really want to look at this!" Then they were taught how to use their body and voice to direct the customer firmly to where they wanted them to go.. It happens all the time during shows. |
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Owen Mc Ginty Special user not a stupid user, a special user. 533 Posts |
Pace, pace, lead?
for example: as you stand there, smiling/giggling, let the sound of my voice take you deeper and deeper...etc etc... then test another suggestion. you could always "engage their reality" - ask them how they feel, and feed their answer back to them, incorporating it into a "loop"? Of course I don´t expect that you´re asking the question because you don´t know what to do
If you never fail, you're not trying hard enough.
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bobser Inner circle 4178 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-02-10 12:28, mindpunisher wrote: Over 30 years ago I was teaching a different group of car salesmen (obviously) to stop asking the question: "can I help you?" which stops all of that from happening in the first place. It's the difference of being smart or being CLEVER!
Bob Burns is the creator of The Swan.
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JonChase Loyal user Exeter, UK 225 Posts |
LOL Bob. There's always another way of looking at things.
In his fantastic book, 'Sleep you Bas-tard!" The worlds greatest stage hypnotist Martin StJames describes how he Was the best car salesman. He used to go up to browsers and say, "You don't want to look at this car, you can't afford it!" I've been asked if the "1,2,3 was a confusion technique. Yes it was, but it didn't work. I had intended it to work because I was demonstrating to the class in front of the video and had a Specific result in mind. That didn't happen. IT WENT WRONG! I always think this "No such thing as failure" was written by an idiot who had accepted too low a level of success for themselves but soooo many people use this NLPish carp it's amazing. Ypu should just accept that things gone wrong sometimes, it makes you more determined to do it right. |
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Zerububle Elite user Poole 430 Posts |
It's fine to embrace failure. For me it's more about not permitting failure to affect the outcome that's important. For some people a 'model' is required to instruct them. For others, it comes more naturally (or has at least been developed over time).
James |
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dmkraig Inner circle 1949 Posts |
Jon, it's easy to attack something when it is misquoted. I would agree that there's "no such thing as failure" would be unrealistic tripe. But that's NOT any part of NLP. The saying is that there is "no such thing as failure, only feedback."
For example, if you try an induction and it doesn't work, you can either leave it at that and call it a failure, or understand the feedback (this induction didn't work) and use that feedback as a way to achieve success (try another induction)...just as you did in the video. |
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bobser Inner circle 4178 Posts |
I think having to write in a chatroom buggers us up with regard to REAL discussion. However lets try this;
Of course we fail. BUT it's important to to let the spec or the audience believe this. Therefore a 'no fail protocol' is in reality simply having the knowledge and ability to take that failure, because that's what it was, and continue. Jon demonstrated that, in so much as a newbie watching the clip might NOT have been convinced that that was indeed a failure. Sure a skilled hypnotist would have seen that but would also have witnessed a skilled operator re-adjusting and moving on. Here's my own worst case scenario; it was in a pub in Brighton. Had tried everything and the guy was NOT going to go, EVER. I had an audience and wanted to to more with others, so, I did a relaxatherapy 10 minute job. Long, slow, and yes, bloody boring. But he opened his eyes and proclaimed to those watching how cool that had been for him. Was it cool in reality? No it/I was bloody terrible. I dunno why but it/I was. It just happens like that sometimes. Although I keep bumping into real stars in here who tell me everything they touch goes to sleep on their command! Back to my guy in the pub in Brighton... after getting over that the evening went great with a que of them all going in seconds. I was performing in The Kelvin Grove Art Gallery in Glasgow today where I had a pop at what I thought would be a natural (a local artist) but it DIDN'T happen. So I got him to close his eyes and bend a spoon before reading my mind while he was in deep deep trance (ahem). Hey, I'm a performer, so sue me! Bob
Bob Burns is the creator of The Swan.
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Shrubsole Inner circle Kent, England 2455 Posts |
Sometimes we must not forget that the audience don't know or care about the difference between Hypnosis, waking hypnosis and sitting in a chair relaxed whilst we do a bit of mentalism. Hard to face after years of hard work, but as long as something entertaining happens that they can't explain, they are happy.
But then that's exactly what Derren Brown has been doing for a number of years now. A bit of hypnosis, and bit of magic method, and a bit of mentalism. All mixed and blurred until the audience are not sure which he is using and don't really care. They just enjoy the show.
Winner of the Dumbringer Award for total incompetence. (All years)
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Pakar Ilusi Inner circle 5777 Posts |
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On 2011-02-11 17:11, Shrubsole wrote: Nicely put.
"Dreams aren't a matter of Chance but a matter of Choice." -DC-
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JonChase Loyal user Exeter, UK 225 Posts |
DM NLP When it works is hypnosis, when it doesn't it's gobbledegook. Tranceformations is the only worthwhile book on the subject with the exception perhaps of Wonder Words. However I did not misquote. Just finished the quote before it got too americanised to make sense - feedback is something I get when my too toppy mic is pointed at the speakers. ;-)
Shrub I think the audience don't know. That's why even though he proved in court of law in the states that Hypnosis does not exsist Kreskin is still thought of as a hypnotist by everyone except Kreskin. As is Brown and Even McKenna. ;-) |
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Shrubsole Inner circle Kent, England 2455 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-02-12 20:05, JonChase wrote: Well yes, an average audience have hypnosis down as anything between just social compliance to alien mind control. Still a lot of us hypnotists have differing opinions and regularly disagree, so how the courts decide what is what I don't know. With the Hypnotism Act here I always laugh as to how they managed to get a law passed and sustained about something that is still being argued as to what it is or if it exists! How does a court decide that 'hypnotism' has taken place when there as many different view about it as there are people? I can understand being sued if someone in your care falls off the stage and hurts themself but that would be the same if you were a singer and invited someone on stage and they fell off whilst under your direction. I really think it's time to dump the Hypnotism Act as general Health and Safety laws cover everything and everyone else.
Winner of the Dumbringer Award for total incompetence. (All years)
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mindpunisher Inner circle 6132 Posts |
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On 2011-02-12 20:05, JonChase wrote: Worthwhile to who and for what? To you perhaps but Ive found a lot of valuable and useful stuff in NLP. Ive found some crap too. But NLP IS hypnosis it was partly coined because where Bandler lived you couldn't practice hypnosis without a medical license. And you will never really be able to judge what is good, bad or what works or doesn't unless you train in NLP. I did all my trainings in the mid 90s. There are some really powerful techniques and processes and theories that you never come across in books. I am not trying sell trainings because there is a lot of bad trainers out there too. I am only stating my experience and what I am able to do because of my "experience" of being involved with NLP. But I really don't think NLP works or doesn't work anymore than a hammer or saw builds a great piece of architecture. They are tools to be used creatively to reach a higher level. Where you end up is always predetermined by what you have in mind. I am really glad I took those trainings with the guys I chose. Yes there is some gobbildy gook in there and there is some BS but there are also some unbelievably powerful gems that the vast majority who who judge NLP by the books they read will never know about. Also there are different "groups" and schools of thought. Some are more predisposed to the BS than others. |
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JonChase Loyal user Exeter, UK 225 Posts |
I did my MNLP [ Master of Neuro Linguistic Programming ] from the British Guild of Hypnotist Examiners with Wilf Proudfoot in 1989, Did the Advanced Practitioner with Bandler in '91. A he says a lot of 'NLP isn't. I still contest that the only time it works is when it's direct suggestion, even when it's wrapped up. And that the vast majority of it especially sub-modalities, eye accessing cues, even mirroring, is complete rubbish on the whole.
I believe that what does happen is that if you believe enough in it's ability to make you better at communicating then you project the confidence and it's that which does the job, that and your intent. What happend in the video was none of the above. It was my intent to hypnotise the girl, and I did. As with Erickson I had no idea what I was doing till after the fact. |
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bobser Inner circle 4178 Posts |
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On 2011-02-13 19:00, JonChase wrote: Absolutely spot on. I've come to the conclusion that it doesn't matter what IT is anymore. Rather what the person believes IT is and what it's power might be. Their belief gives them the ability which projects the confidence, which linked to their intent etc etc etc. Basically exactly what you (Jon) said.
Bob Burns is the creator of The Swan.
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dmkraig Inner circle 1949 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-02-12 20:05, JonChase wrote: About 2 years ago I hired a plumber to do some work. When he finished, I said, "What you did was really easy. Now that I've seen it I could do it." He responded, "Yes, it's really easy...until it isn't." Sounds exactly like what you're saying. As long as you can do it you can define it as hypnosis. When you fail at it you define it as gobbledegook. So if a chemist puts together some formulas and you get better, you call them drugs, but if he makes a mistake do you call it gobbledegook, or do you say that the chemist either made a mistake or didn't know what he was doing? |
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mindpunisher Inner circle 6132 Posts |
Jon I also trained with Wilf Proudfoot the old school of NLP. I trained with Tad James and David Shepard and a few others.
I have to say my findings are different to yours. On a regular basis I have many of the techniques "work". I have found that eye accessibg cues "work" if you calibrate them everyime I've tried it. Although I find them to be useless and never use them. Its funny how everybody brings them up in a discussion about NLP when really they are one of hundreds of techniques. Matching and mirroring works beyond belief in my experience. In just about every situation I can think of. But again these are just surface basic techniques that usually acompany the eye accesing cues in conversations so everyone seems to think that's what NLP is it isn't. Ofcourse if your assumption is right about belief then to you its a lot of tosh or gobbildygook. That doesn't make it so - only that your belief is true for you. I have had many successes with clients using a 5 hour breakthrough process I learned from Tad James and David Shepard. A lot of it isn't direct suggestion in fact most of it isn't. Now I think of it there is hardly any direct suggestion. Direct suggestion rarely works for emotional problems. Suggestion therapy itself is not that strong. The real power is knowing how to structure and keep going until you get the result. I am sure that's what Proudfoot used to teach. You don't know which technique is going to "work" you keep playing ith the structure and proces of a problem until it falls apart. A but like a boxer picking away at an oppenent. that's how I have always understood NLP and it has "worked" most of the time in fac the vast majority of the time we got the results we were looking for. Then again perhaps I'm just a talented genuis. And I always pick who I work with. I don't work with everybody although just about everybody that approaches me. |
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Zerububle Elite user Poole 430 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-02-13 22:30, dmkraig wrote: hmmmmm well done for crow-barring an analogy like that. Not sure at all that was what Jon was saying, neither do I think that the analogies work at any level. Jon is by no means a beginner and I doubt that he views failure in such a way. Lets think a little harder before posting. |
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mindpunisher Inner circle 6132 Posts |
I'm not sure what jon was saying either. But its clear what DM was saying. Shouldn't it be Jon that's thinking a bit harder before posting? Since after all hes isn't a beginer???? ( what does that mean?)
What is crow-barring? Not sure what you are saying either bub.. |
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