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Dr. Van Van Mojo
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[quote]On 2011-02-28 12:22, TheGingerWizard wrote:
Quote:
I would never defend a lack of crediting, however I defended J Prager as I think he did create these ideas independently and has great potential.


I find it interesting that you seem to be more concerned with defending J.P. than he is himself. I would think he would have more to say on this topic.

Then again, I'm still waiting for J. Prager to answer my query about The Bite. http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......um=15&11

J, no offense meant, but it kind of seems like you are more interested in creating hype for every new idea you have than any ongoing discussion about it. Maybe you're only interested in making some quick cash from every 'single idea pdf' you can put out and there's no other reason you're sharing your work. If so that's too bad, because it looks like you may be a good thinker. It would be nice to see you slow down a little and take some of the advice here. Compile several of your ideas, research, get permissions, credit, and release an ebook without so much controversy. Do it right and be proud of what you release. However, if you are just out to make a quick buck then I guess you're doing it right.
IAIN
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@JDmagic - He's not ethically entitled to publish it...well, by my ethics he's not...yours may vary...
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TheGingerWizard
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Quote:
On 2011-02-28 16:02, Dr. Van Van Mojo wrote:
I find it interesting that you seem to be more concerned with defending J.P. than he is himself. I would think he would have more to say on this topic.


I was wrong mate, you want me to say it again?
Davit Sicseek
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Quote:
Thank you for your PM asking for my real name and also for the subtle insinuation that I stole your pdf. Very classy. I sympathise with you and don't think anyone deserves to be stolen from ever, however I feel you can become overly sensitive. I will send you my real name for verification but I will ask that you don't share it with anyone else.


You should have told him to get stuffed. Your real name is none of his business. If he thinks you have stolen his work then that is tough luck - it would only be another knot for his knickers. It seems every post I've read from Pablo recently has been moaning about how much he hates this place and won't be posting. Let it be so.

As for Peeki, from what has been said in this thread it is pretty obvious what the method invloves - it is so obvious that I don't really care one way or another about who he credits. I'm sure there are references going back to the oldest books describing such peeks. What is truly novel and original about Peeki is that he is the first to think it is an idea worth selling without even a routine. Novel thinking indeed. I've read better freebies from Pablo Smile

As for independent discoveries - if (and I mean if) they are genuine then publish away. If a new mentalist is able to make multiple discoveries that parallel the work of others - that implies that either the guy is a genius, or that the original discoveries weren't exactly rocket science. Assuming you can make a good guess about what Peeki is - have a think about how you would have executed a peek in a truly ungimmicked wallet. There aren't many ways - and I suspect that even the less able members of this forum could have something at least half workable within an hour - and it's probably very similar to that detailed in Peeki.
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JohnWells
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This is identical to a drawing dupe I bought several years ago called "peek folio." It's a good idea; it was likely developed independently. However, if a nobody like me can immediately remember a previous source, then pretty much anyone else with a knowledge of the literature should be able to come up with several.

Should J have submitted this for vetting before publishing it? Yes. Should J wait and collect his ideas and sell a book of material at a reasonable price? Yes. $17 for these two ideas is too much. Not least because Bite, well, not the routines (such as they are)was a Bob Ostin idea, even the "improvement" "invented" by Mr. Prager was publ;ished by Bob Ostin. It took two minutes for me to find both original sources. They ebboks are well produced and nicely photographed (Docc, are you reading this?), but style does not substitute for substance. Should J Prager be beaten about the head and shoulders as he has been? No, but a stern talking to would not be out of place. Maybe he'll learn...
Mind over Magic
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I hope he does learn John, but this is the third time he has done this. It's almost as this has been a prank from the start and everyone is falling for it.

And now it appears that he is once again selling the Kollosal Killer rip-off. I officially have no respect for this guy any longer. Well the little I did had anyway.

Sid.
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Quote:
As for independent discoveries - if (and I mean if) they are genuine then publish away. If a new mentalist is able to make multiple discoveries that parallel the work of others - that implies that either the guy is a genius, or that the original discoveries weren't exactly rocket science. Assuming you can make a good guess about what Peeki is - have a think about how you would have executed a peek in a truly ungimmicked wallet. There aren't many ways - and I suspect that even the less able members of this forum could have something at least half workable within an hour - and it's probably very similar to that detailed in Peeki.


I agree. Many ideas are not rocket science. In just fooling around with with billets, I have independently developed Obsidian Oblique, Acidus Globus, and several other things that are considered the ne plus ultra in the area of billet peeks. The difference betwween me and Alain Bellon and Millard Longmann is that they could see value in a idea I left at "that will never work" and made it workable. That's why they are rightly considered some of the best minds in the business and why I will rightly be forgotten the moment I stop ticking people off every now and then.
I'm not particularly creative. Seeing the inside of a billet (or wallet), as you rightly point out, is a finite problem. Like building a mechanically powered, two-wheeled, single person conveyance, in which all good solutions will be very like a bicycle, so the peeking technology will will tend to center around the limits in the spatial reasoning of most spectators. I have little doubt that Prager hit upon his solution independently.
That being said, had I published the Barfly's Whirligig Billet Technique or whatever I might have called those ridiculous notions, it would have been perfectly appropriate to lambast me. If I immediately took the product off the market, ot got permissoon from the real creators and sold it with full credit, that might be forgiven. To do it twice, or more, and never vett the product before selling it, suggests an ethical issue.
mywords4u
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Being a research student at university, I constantly have to submit my work to the academic world and basically have to deal with similar things.

Even in academic world, it's rare to find any revolutionary work these days because the fundamental is so sound. Most of the work in recent years has been an improvement of an existing one and that is not so different to what we're seeing here. When these improvements are made the original work is referenced and it's just not for academic world. I personally had some cases where my work, which has been carried out independently, was rejected because there are too many similar works out there or advised to include references on previous works in similar areas. Without proper reference or credit things will get chaotic pretty soon with so many works being carried out. I do see the necessity of referencing/crediting though it's really a painful procedure to go through.

I think the problem here is that he is unwilling to credit proper names. I'm sure that he has developed his work independently but from what I can see, it's an improvement, so to speak, of an existing material and he has been notified this. As Elliot suggested, I think a line or two mentioning the previous work is the least thing he could do.

My point is that based on my experience in academic world, and it really applies to anything else, though you have develop the method independently, an adequate amount of time should be spent in researching if there is an existing work especially if there's a financial gain. I understand that you can't always find out if there is an existing work before, but once you learn that it exists, you need to take appropriate actions and that's where the criticism comes from in this particular incident.

I hope that this incident will be resolved soon, and the right actions are taken.

Leo
magic4545
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Quote:
On Feb 28, 2011, JohnWells wrote:
This is identical to a drawing dupe I bought several years ago called "peek folio." It's a good idea; it was likely developed independently.


No, J Prager bought my Peekfolio when it came out back then, and he wrote this on 1/11/11, here on the Magic Café...

"AMAZING!

I have just buyed this, I know it is old, but it is one of the best ideas I have seen in a long time!
J"

I have a pretty good idea where he got his 'inspiration.' He just steeled it, LOL. Too bad he couldn't credit me with being the place where he got it.

As far as "old"? The closest thing that I could find was a playing card buckle.

Sad.

Jimmy Fingers
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Last Laugh
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Wow, so he released an identical effect a month after he bought yours?
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Amirá
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Quote:
On Sep 11, 2017, Last Laugh wrote:
Wow, so he released an identical effect a month after he bought yours?



He did the exact same with my routine "2 Thoughts" years ago. Literally three days after he released his "own".

Yes, independent creation happens but this is clearly not the case. From that day I decided to not sell him my material or anyone at my site.
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paul180
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Interesting how this thread was resurrected after laying dormant for over 6 years? What's the point? And why is beating a dead horse something we are interested in? Seems like some just need something to bitach about.
A wise man can learn more from a foolish question than a foolish man can learn from a wise answer.

Attributing negativity to a topic or post doesn't make the topic or post negative,
it shines a light on the negativity of the person or persons, making the attributions.

BEWARE these Debbie downers and anything they say. They simply lack the self esteem or good will, to be positive or productive. Your belief in self, is more
important and is all that matters, for your success to be glorious.
Amirá
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Quote:
On Sep 12, 2017, paul180 wrote:
Interesting how this thread was resurrected after laying dormant for over 6 years? What's the point? And why is beating a dead horse something we are interested in? Seems like some just need something to bitach about.


It is sad that this happens. I prefer not to talk about this, but this is not a dead horse at all. He still sells this.
Jimmy has all the rights to offer his perspective, me as well.
Pablo
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IAIN
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Yes, I had tarography pretty much ripped off and then made worse by someone...its highly annoying, especially when they disregard your wishes and ignore the points you make when you try and discuss it with the person who is desperate to release "their" idea... Smile
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Last Laugh
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Image
My Mentalism Podcast:
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Amirá
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Quote:
On Sep 12, 2017, IAIN wrote:
Yes, I had tarography pretty much ripped off and then made worse by someone...its highly annoying, especially when they disregard your wishes and ignore the points you make when you try and discuss it with the person who is desperate to release "their" idea... Smile


"pretty much ripped off"

You know that "Arcana" was a case of independent creation, VERY different to what we are watching in "Peeki".
I never had your "Tarography" before and as soon as you contacted me I add the references to your work to show respect to your release.
You know that I took the core concept from "Coaching Cards" that I use during psychology workshops. You took it from other source and it is fine. We both created something very similar, but I didn't rip you off

And no, mine is better , nanana!
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IAIN
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You actually contacted ME in the first instance, and I sent you tarography, pointed out the similarities and eventually had to say yours was a step back...then I asked you to decide whether you thought it was ok to release yours, if you felt yours did something different and/or better...so you did! there's a surprise! you even told me you thought they were similar!

you just said that my photos "suited darker presentations" which kinda missed the entire point of tarography...

still...that's the benefit of a community isn't it!

Smile
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Prager
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Quote:
On Sep 11, 2017, magic4545 wrote:
Quote:
On Feb 28, 2011, JohnWells wrote:
This is identical to a drawing dupe I bought several years ago called "peek folio." It's a good idea; it was likely developed independently.


No, J Prager bought my Peekfolio when it came out back then, and he wrote this on 1/11/11, here on the Magic Café...

"AMAZING!

I have just buyed this, I know it is old, but it is one of the best ideas I have seen in a long time!
J"

I have a pretty good idea where he got his 'inspiration.' He just steeled it, LOL. Too bad he couldn't credit me with being the place where he got it.

As far as "old"? The closest thing that I could find was a playing card buckle.

Sad.

Jimmy Fingers
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www.magellanlevitation.com


Jimmy you are the author of multiple fake posts selling your own products. Just do a search of your username. That's ripping off people.

Pablo Amira, you are the most synical man on this biz, you are a joke.
Jose Prager
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magic4545
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How can I be an author of a fake post? I may endorse my own products from time to time, but I've never created a fake profile or misrepresented myself as another person to do it.

But, back to the original point I was making... You used my Peekfolio concept without permission or giving proper credit where credit was due.

You know where you got the idea. Admit it, apologize for the oversight. Or, just be a loser.

The good thing is, nobody cares.

Jimmy Fingers
magic4545
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Quote:
On Sep 12, 2017, Amirá wrote:
Quote:
On Sep 12, 2017, paul180 wrote:
Interesting how this thread was resurrected after laying dormant for over 6 years? What's the point? And why is beating a dead horse something we are interested in? Seems like some just need something to bitach about.


It is sad that this happens. I prefer not to talk about this, but this is not a dead horse at all. He still sells this.
Jimmy has all the rights to offer his perspective, me as well.


I agree. I only just found out that this had happened.

Most of the people who have a problem with creative people trying to avoid being ripped off and discredited are usually those who have never created anything worthwhile.
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