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mindpunisher
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Before this post disappears....

I have been on the Café for too long years and years. I have bought all the ****e along with some great things too.

I recognise a pattern here... What is new about getting a peek from a wallet? Jeeze give me a day Il go out find a wallet and create a peek from it.

I remember the days when we used to buy real products real dvds and books with good collections of original work.

Now we get newbies selling to newbies every "idea" they come up with.

By the way I hate Oasis...

If you want to sell a peek then sell a whole collection of breakthrough routines or don't bother...

We had the over hyped products now we don't even have complete products and you are buying..

mental ists
TheGingerWizard
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Quote:
On 2011-02-28 09:05, IAIN wrote:
so the line in the sand says "research, speak to people, credit, ask for permissions" - job done...everyone is happy...simple....


I cannot argue with that!
TheGingerWizard
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Quote:
On 2011-02-28 09:06, mindpunisher wrote:
By the way I hate Oasis...


I cannot argue with that!
tboehnlein
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ohio
1779 Posts

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I have the pdf, I advised him it was similar to another peek, neithe AN or the busch peek. Give him a break it was an independant find. Could it have been credited to other sources, sure but do not hang him for a 7 buck pdf. Give some advice and move on.
Prager
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e-Mentalism.com
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Many of the "Pros" ask me for my ideas, I share them happily in exchange of some feedback, when they get my idea they just don´t answer me, they don´t even say: "Thank you for sharing." So why should I keep giving away my work?

An ungimmicked wallet peek like PEEKI has never been published before. Why should I credit people for "inspiration" if it is not true?

I can investigate a lot of the new published ideas, and if I want I can connect them with something similar published in the past.

Some of you make the readers belive that I am selling an old idea as new. That is not true!

Mentalism is an art, mentalism is my life, I am sure that I am not disrespecting it.
Jose Prager
The man who knows how to amuse and mystify

www.e-mentalism.com
Secret products for mentalists.
TheGingerWizard
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Quote:
On 2011-02-28 09:44, tboehnlein wrote:
I have the pdf, I advised him it was similar to another peek, neithe AN or the busch peek. Give him a break it was an independant find. Could it have been credited to other sources, sure but do not hang him for a 7 buck pdf. Give some advice and move on.


I agree.

Prager makes another good point above. Going back to the music analogy I'm sure I can find some definite similarities in some oasis tunes to some classical music if I did enough digging!
IAIN
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Eternal Order
england
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The techniques are not yours, and are basically billet work - not invented by you, adapted to a wallet yes, but you do not credit anyone at all...

you re-discovered them on your own, sure - but that doesn't really matter I'm afraid...i mean, well done in LOTS of ways, but to sell and teach a peek that is already out there, written/invented/publish by someone else, its not yours to explain...not without the correct crediting/permissions anyway...

lets say I invent something to do with say... staples...i publish it and claim it as mine...how would you feel if I published it and told everyone that no one else has ever done it before me, its my idea, and mine alone...would you feel just a little upset/annoyed? be honest...

because the way mentalism is heading, we're not that far away from open-season...where I can re-invent Q&A, sw**i writers, all kinds of envelopes, and say they are original to me... we need to respect those that came before us...

much like an orgy...
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TheGingerWizard
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Quote:
On 2011-02-28 10:01, IAIN wrote:
The techniques are not yours, and are basically billet work - not invented by you, adapted to a wallet yes, but you do not credit anyone at all...


But it is a wallet not a billet, that's the point. Francesco Tesei released a staple gun roulette and credited Marc Spellman. Using your logic should he have credited whoever used Russian roulette with guns? He doesn't because it's not the same thing, although it's exactly the same plot he has adapted it to something else.

At least J Prager is trying to add to mentalism. I respect that, Esh-pecially when others do the opposite!
IAIN
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Eternal Order
england
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BUT
HE
DOES
NOT
SEEK
PERMISSION
NOR
CREDIT

for those missing the point...
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blsorg
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Charleston WV
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I've been performing and studying magic since 1960's appx. and much of the material I read has been in print (or on video) before. This is bound to happen when you have 1000's of magicians and mentalists that share a common interest or specialty. I can easily see how this could happen. Nobody can own every book or every video to check to see if something's been done before. And a lot of things would never get published or shared if a person had to walk on eggs to keep from insulting some of the highly opinionated, temperamental individuals on this board. C'mon, Chill fellas!
- Time flies like an arrow; Fruit flies like a banana! -

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Gatehouse
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Cardiff, UK
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Quote:
On 2011-02-28 10:01, IAIN wrote:
The techniques are not yours, and are basically billet work - not invented by you, adapted to a wallet yes, but you do not credit anyone at all...

you re-discovered them on your own, sure - but that doesn't really matter I'm afraid...i mean, well done in LOTS of ways, but to sell and teach a peek that is already out there, written/invented/publish by someone else, its not yours to explain...not without the correct crediting/permissions anyway...

lets say I invent something to do with say... staples...i publish it and claim it as mine...how would you feel if I published it and told everyone that no one else has ever done it before me, its my idea, and mine alone...would you feel just a little upset/annoyed? be honest...

because the way mentalism is heading, we're not that far away from open-season...where I can re-invent Q&A, sw**i writers, all kinds of envelopes, and say they are original to me... we need to respect those that came before us...

much like an orgy...


I have to agree wholeheartedly with this. No doubt those that support Prager will be quick to jump on this, but this is how I see it...

So far, this guy has released two 'products', both of which have simply rehashed old work.
I'm sorry, but the first time I was willing to go with independent discovery, but this doesn't sit so well the second time around.

Even when a problem was identified with the first 'product' no offer was made for refunds, etc... something which (while I've said before, I wouldn't have bothered taking him up on) would have been a common courtesy.

Now we're on to his second release. Another uncredited work that seemingly rehashes principles.
No, I haven't bought the 'manuscript' (and believe me, it pains me to call it that). And boy I'm glad I didn't.

How this guy still retains any support from the 'pros' is beyond me.


Put it this way - I recently shared some ideas on a principle with someone from the Café. it was some great work and I expanded on it to meet a different criteria.
Would I claim this as my own work and publish it? No. Not in a million years. It's a shame other 'creators' aren't so discerning.
Gatehouse
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Quote:
On 2011-02-28 10:15, blsorg wrote:
I've been performing and studying magic since 1960's appx. and much of the material I read has been in print (or on video) before. This is bound to happen when you have 1000's of magicians and mentalists that share a common interest or specialty. I can easily see how this could happen. Nobody can own every book or every video to check to see if something's been done before. And a lot of things would never get published or shared if a person had to walk on eggs to keep from insulting some of the highly opinionated, temperamental individuals on this board. C'mon, Chill fellas!


The trouble is, if it were actually being 'published' this kind of thing wouldn't get through. The simple fact of the matter is that the internet allows people to self publish anything they want.
They should at least have the courtesy to check with others before putting stuff out. It's only right.
TheGingerWizard
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I'm not missing the point, I'm debating it. How far does it have to go. Colin McLeod teaches his own billet sw**ch on opening minds. Does he therefore have to credit everyone who has ever put out a billet sw**ch? It is not even Millard or Richard who are complaining, it's a bunch of people who are acting uninstructed on their behalf. Maybe they should be made aware of it and if they have a problem it could be dealt with privately. Then you will argue that he didn't check with them first, but how did he know to? then we're back to showing everyone everything before it is released and round and round we go!
mindpunisher
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>>>An ungimmicked wallet peek like PEEKI has never been published before. Why should I credit people for "inspiration" if it is not true?<<<<<

You haven't really done much research have you?
TheGingerWizard
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Quote:
On 2011-02-28 10:26, mindpunisher wrote:
>>>An ungimmicked wallet peek like PEEKI has never been published before. Why should I credit people for "inspiration" if it is not true?<<<<<

You haven't really done much research have you?


You haven't bought it though so how would you know? Can you give me the exact source? 'like' is the important word in the quote!
IAIN
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Eternal Order
england
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No we don't... we go to the people who are published, who always get mentioned on forums as the "go to guy for...xyz", the information is out there...you don't have to buy books, you just have to ask...on places like this...

colin's switch was looked at by those in the know (if I remember it rightly, he showed me it in a pub a couple of years back, I was drinking so my memory is a little hazy)...

so no, not everyone, just those that in the know, so to speak...

I got the information I needed, by asking the right person - and after sending him copies of the book test... direct route... easy...and I'm very thankful for the help, feedback and guidance...thats all it takes...
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TheGingerWizard
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You've now missed my point though. It is a billet switch, So you go to the guy in the know and they tell you the names of 100 people who have their own billet switches. It's the same thing is it not? just a slightly different way of achieving the desired result. A wallet is not the same as a billet.

I totally agree with you that research should be done, and done well. I agree that crediting is hugely important and I understand the reasons why. However I still think some of the criticism here is a little harsh.
TheGingerWizard
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Quote:
On 2011-02-28 06:23, Amirá wrote:
If you respect the art, don't buy this.

All the 3 products that I know from Jose were uncredited old ideas. He needs to relax, compile a few of his ideas and ask for crediting. He clearly isn't doint that.

I don't have anything against him, but against his repetitive attitude.


Harsh. Did Amira credit the first person to ever **r* a c*** in his 5 miracles pdf? I must of missed that?

I have respect for Amira, I enjoy his products and know he credits well. I am using this as an example of how silly this has become.
IAIN
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Eternal Order
england
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No, by asking the "go to guy" you're tapping into their knowledge, and all those other people who have then gone to him to ask for permission/crediting/asking if its been done before...so he doesn't give you a 100 names at all, he says "not heard of it being used in such a way... you may want to double check with go to guy2...", they say "fine by me...", then you're good to go...

its not some huge, never ending corridor, its usually pretty easy...and yup, mistakes are made, things are over-looked, however they too are easily rectified... people often learn their lesson pretty quickly too, and you'd think that someone who got a huge amount of (free) help from some very decent people would do the right thing afterwards and communicate...

I'm advocating crediting and asking permissions - if you feel that's wrong, good luck to you...
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Amirá
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MentalismCenter.com
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Quote:
On 2011-02-28 10:44, TheGingerWizard wrote:
Quote:
On 2011-02-28 06:23, Amirá wrote:
If you respect the art, don't buy this.

All the 3 products that I know from Jose were uncredited old ideas. He needs to relax, compile a few of his ideas and ask for crediting. He clearly isn't doint that.

I don't have anything against him, but against his repetitive attitude.


Harsh. Did Amira credit the first person to ever **r* a c*** in his 5 miracles pdf? I must of missed that?

I have respect for Amira, I enjoy his products and know he credits well. I am using this as an example of how silly this has become.


HEY !

Did you have a copy of my eBook ?
What is your real name?

don't put MY products in this topic. don't use my ideas as reference.
This is a product that don't deserve to be purchase for anyone. The idea isn't credited well.
Simple as that.
Pablo
Performer and Author

Mentalism Center: The best online space to get quality Mentalism
www.mentalismcenter.com

Arkanosophy: The Boutique for Mystery Performers
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