I never really got into coins, preferring cards and
miscellaneous things until I decided to give Menage
Et Trois a try. Now I'm obsessed with the plot and
getting deeper and deeper into coins.

I know that there are a lot of 3 Fly posts (as I have
read quite a few), but it seems like the most valuable
information is spread out over so many posts and it
is tedious to spend hours looking for the info, so I
apologize if this post seems like "just another 3 fly
post"

What I would like to see is a history plotted out
that discusses not just who has worked on this, but
what they did that ADVANCED the plot. I have other,
more personally relevant questions about the plot that
I'm hoping this post will answer, but I think asking
the questions out right would be boring for others so
lets try this.

Here is what I have gathered thus far:


Townsend - Inventor (unpublished)
Kenner - Popularized the effect in Out Of Control

Other names I have heard attached are:

Kurtz
Williamson
McClintock
Hooser
Baker
Kohler - U3F system


What I would like to see is a discussion on this latter list. What did they add? Where is it published if at all? Do they deserve to be in the "definitive" list of people who progressed the plot or did they really not add anything. What came first? What coins
do they use, and can either half dollars or dollars
be used for the same work?

If some of these questions seem dumb, I'm sorry, but like
I said I'm interested in the history and getting it all straight in my head. I'm also wanting to buy
materials that will get me more into this plot (and other coin work).

If you think other work should be included in the list,
please feel free to mention it, but please don't just plug your friends (or yourself)

thanks

P.S. please include as much information as
possible. In other words, the name of the
person, the effect name, the place it is
published, any moves that they invented or
advanced that helped improve the overall
effect, etc... I'd like to see this post as
informative about 3 Fly as possible.

Hmmm, since I do not know too much, I hope no one is offended if I say something wrong here!??

For me, Kurtz was the first I saw do 3Fly!

I do not know if he was the first to use a shell?
He created a whole routine in which 3 Fly was just a part! It can be found in his book "Unexplainable Acts"
or on the Video "Creating Magic" or the first Ron Mac Millan Lecture!

Reed McClintock was the First to use three diferent coins if I'm not mistaken!?

Troy Hooser has some interesting ideas using the Flipper-Coin or another gimmick. Just read his book "Destroyers" or the DVDs.

There is another guy that comes to mind- Garret Thomas and also Nathan Kranzo!

Well, and Bob Kohler. He just came up with a really clever gimmick! What else could one say?

Cheers

Stefan

You are opening a big can of worms here. Try the thread over at the genii forum. I would suggest all the work has been done for you (other than Jon Townsend's input which would be an excellent addition).

I'm glad to see someone who finally admits to enjoying the effect. Anyway, here's my pocket of 3 fly knowledge.

Hooser: He has simple and direct three fly routines. He makes the trick clean from start to finish using a flipper coin. However, the use of the gaff makes the acutual handlings somewhat awkward.

Kohler: If you want to drop a billion dollars for a gaff that transposes coins from one hand to the other while simultaneously doing your taxes and laundry then buy this version. It automates the trick, you speak while it performs.

McClintock: He has diversified the 3 Fly plot by creating un gimmicked, gimmicked, and international handlings. Reed's versions are all similar in handlings it seems but at the same time they have a distinct feel and tend to confuse the audience due to the fast transpositions back and forth. His international three fly has kicker tranpositions that leave your audience astounded to the point that they stop trying to figure you out.

Kainoa Harbottle: Kainoa is not on your list but I feel he should be mentioned. He has recently published Coins on Edge which contains a clever and effecient three fly. His 3 fly and Reed's Scream Fly are striking similar. They have some of the same great moments of confusion and fast transposition. Kainoa's version is ungaffed, uses only edge grip (except for a few moments) and is by far my favorite version. His patter also allows you to befriend the audience to the point where you are experiencing the magic with them rather than trying to fool them. Also, nothing can beat the last transposition that has you vanish one coin in the right hand, produce it in the left hand (which has been shown front and back previously as containing only two coins), and then count the three coins in the left showing that there have always only been three coins in play. The last transpo is just a jaw droppper.

Anyway, that's my little tid bit on three fly. It's a good trick and definately one to show other magicians.

I believe Jon's looked very clean and straight forward. Kenner used an extra and turn the plot really visual however, his does look really fishy if you do it too fast or too slow. Kurtz used a different method for adding the extra into the other hand. Personally, I think it looks very unatural but, his vanishes did fool the 'heck' out of me. I like the use of curl palm the vanish the last coin. I heard Williamson's plot is a lot like Kurtz' but, I don't have his book so I wouldn't know. Reed, really added different ways to change the coin over from hand to hand. His really fair and slow handings really turn the 3 fly into a magician fooler. I also think Reed started the use of the J.W. Grip to vanish the coins. Hooser added the flipper but, didn't do much other then that. Kohler added the SS gimmick to clean up the vanishes, changes and productions. I don't think we should forget Kainoa either because, his handling is probly the best non-gimmicked version. If I am wrong please correct me.

Thanks,
Lee

P.S. if you know 'The Bullet' from 5x5 Japan then you can look in the secret session for my only 3 coin handling but, knowone seems to care about it.

If you go to Paul Wilson's web site he discusses some of the history of 3 fly. In his downloadable 3 fly "Completely Crowded" he gives a description, and the best thing is the description part of the history of it is for free. So go check it out.

Henok Negash

Where is Williamson's handling of 3 fly in print?
I never heard he had one,(or baker??) But if he does would like to see it?

Didn't see Curtis Kam's name on the list. You can find his handling in his book "Professional Close up of Curtis Kam" Also on his Video "Deceptions in Paradise"
And also on "Palms of steel 1"

He added a new technique he calls "The Twist" move you can produce,split,switch,change,and shuttle a coin from hand to hand.

I haven't read Kainoa's handling yet I'm sure it's excellent, But I'm still working on the moves before reading the tricks (or at least I'm trying to force myself to not read them until I have the moves down enough to work through the tricks.
Best
Joe

Sorry Gidon, I missed your post and I don't know how. Well said on the the Kainoa-fly.

Lee

Daryl also has, imho, a forgettable version out there. I don't think it adds much but I haven't seen him perform it and it's been awhile since I pulled it out and read it. Paul Wilson's "Crowded Coins" as mentioned, is a nice version.

Who/which Baker has a three fly?

There is also at least one forgettable version here on the Café which at least briefly was sold, aka "True Fly." <Ouch, sorry to bring it up, but he asked!> and another that generated some initial buzz and then dropped off the radar called "Pelican Fly." The latter was notable for its final coin vanish which was never, to my knowledge, released or disclosed.
Cordially,
tr

I knew about Curtis and plan to look into his stuff,
I just wasn't sure how influential his version was.
I also heard about Kainoa and I really want his book
but It is so new I didn't put his name up there. Both
material I plan to check out though.

mystre71 & thimblerig
As I said, I'm new to coins so I may have crossed some
information. I don't know where I heard about Al Baker
and his influence but I have his name on my 3 Fly notes
as someone of some influence.

Jonathan Townsend PMed me in response to this post. He
gave me a very good run down which will go in my notes
(he probably has posted it elsewhere too or he probably
would have posted it in this topic) It is a crazy
tree of versions and insights and does not mention
Baker, so I guess Baker had little real influence,
though those are my words not his.


Somewhere on this thread someone mentioned that one
version involves crossing the arms for the vanish
under the premise that "the coins stay in the same
hand" I don't use that patter premise, but I like
the way the vanish looks (at least I think I do it
the same way) Does anyone know who does this?

JonTown assured me there was a presentation for his
effect, so far I have only seen this performed in
online videos and not one of them included a presentation... but I'm working on one because I don't
like the description angle. "I have 3 coins, watch
as they travel one by one..." I still think this
effect has enormous potential, and I don't know why
some people think its boring etc. It really stick out
to me.

Hivemind,

I can't say that I was all that influential in the initial development of this effect. I was smart enough to realize that Jonathan was onto something, but that's about it. On the "Palms of Steel" video I think I do have one tip that may be of general use, a way to avoid the "lame joke" nonpassage of the third coin. This is especially useful when performing for people who speak some other language.

Okay, and I have a presentational premise you might like, and a bunch of one-handed vanishes. Solutions to the common sticking points, but no big revelations.

Reed McClintock's "Coin Patriot" is required viewing, however. He suggests an approach that changes the way the entire effect looks. It may just be the next big step towards the "visualist" coin across.

My current routine uses EG techniques from Kainoa's book and some of Reed's thinking about the effect itself. I have added a bit that makes the "lame joke" sing, and an important psychological tip that makes a sleight-of-hand vanish for the last coin more deceptive. It's all described in my lecture notes "Coins: Howtowhytowhattowhento" for my lecture at the Magic Castle (8/24) and LVMI (9/15 or 16) Hope to see you there, with the rest of the guys who are still obscessed with this effect.

I wonder where the Williamson reference comes from. Though Dave is a "half-god" in my personal perception, I've never seen his name related to the 3-fly plot. He has a very cool 3 coin and wand routine (Money Talks) which bears some similarities with Kenner's 3 coins and wand routines. Maybe that's where the confusion comes from.

I might be very wrong here, but could it be that the 3-fly genesis has a before- and after-the-hype history?

Certainly before the hype Jon's routine might have been the first of it's kind (though he wrote me once that he did not use it in the vertical plane completely). Then Kenner popularized it in his wonderful book. While Kurtz put his version on video and in his book.
I've been doing the trick since Kenner's publication in Magic Man Examiner and the only other source I was aware of was Kurtz'...

Then Bob Kohler caused the hype with his U3F and LOTS of other publications seemed to pop up, either in print or on video, most of them claiming to be invented years ago.

Notice I use the word "seemed". I am aware that some of them were actually published, but there was not too much heat/demand on the routines. I think that started after the hype...

I hope this is of any interest in your historic research HiveMind. As you see I love the plot as well, although I never had the intention to publish my variations, which I HAVE. (And they are much older than other's...hahaha!)

I think the routine may become full circle when Jon Townsend finally publishes his seminal version. He tipped some of his moves to me and I can't hardly wait to go out in the open with 'em. Then, the routine might be put to rest (in a publishing way of speaking)and (re)creators might move to the next plot.
Now what might that be...?
That's good for another thread...

I don't know where I got Baker and Williamson from.
It was probably a refrence to some moves but I didn't
write that part down.

I too am waiting for Mr. Townsend's routine to finally
shed some light on the routine. I am more interested
in seeing him perform it though, because I want to
finally get a taste of some presentation associated
with this plot!

MR. Kam --

Unfortunately I cannot make those dates, but I do hope
to see you around once I have some travelling money
and a weekend that coincides with a tour. In the mean
time Ill be busy with your work among others.

Everyone has been really helpful, thanks!

Lately I've been working with Dan Sylvester's coins
across using his inertia pass as an intro part of
Menage Et Trois. The problem is I don't like phases
2 and 3 of Kenner's version much.

The second phase seems like there should be a way to
get that second coin to fade in at the fingertips, and
the third phase... well Menage Et Trois is not complete
in my opinion. To be complete, you have to know his
mystery vanish or something better than the one in
the book, which is asking a lot of the audience to
stretch their imagination. I use the inertia pass to
show the hand empty (with cause) right before I put
the coins away, but I'm still looking for a better way.

Im excited about the edge grip work by Kainoa as well
as Mr. Kam's work and Mr. McClintock's work. Do those
fly routines use half dollars or dollar coins?

In Kainoa's book he's using half dollars for his 3 fly
"Another Flipping Three Fly"

Curtis uses dollars "Silver Circle" on palms of steel.

Reed uses dollars in his "ScreamFly" And I belive half dollars in his "International 3 fly" both are on "Coin Ovations"

I've always used half dollars but slowly making the switch to dollars it's more visual for larger groups.
But you should use whatever your most comfortable with.

Depending on which handling you go with. If you have a very small group, you COULD borrow some Quarters and do the routine with borrowed money (of course you would have to add in one of your own quarters or something extra) MIGHT make it a lil' stronger?

Best,
Joe
:spinningcoin:

No one here has yet mentioned Nathan Kranzo's name. He created a very good International 3-Fly on his video Out of the Box. I think it came out before Reed McClintock's Coin Ovation which contained his International 3Fly. These are two routines I am sure that these men were doing for a long time before they put it on DVD so I have no idea who came up with thier effect first. I just think that Nathan's name should be mentioned on this thread and now that I have I am done.

Stephan mentioned Nathan Kranzo, second post.

Anyway I myself was a fan of Gary Kurtz', I think mainly because at first you couldn't tell that his 3 fly was a 3 fly, because it was so beautifully woven in to his routine. In his routine "Misty Like a Dream" you can't tell where one effect ends and the next begins because there is no line, I think that's what appealed to me about Gary's coin work, and his 3 Fly is something I perform regularly.

Well I don't know who really thought of an international 3 fly routine first since I also had thought of it myself a few years ago. But Kranzo's version predates Mr. McClintock's version for sure....

JB Dumas A.K.A "the ecco warrior"

at my orders......

RE: the I3F and "who had it first", you don't want to go there. Trust me.

J.B. first your claim can not be proven that you had it before either of us, so don't go there.
The reality of it is this. He has his own method and he let alot of people down for taking credit for work he clearly should not have. Just to make himself bigger on the bills than he really is ( all that to be the first in print with an effect)I hope it was worth it . I am over it and I know who inspired him on the international three fly. I figure I got lucky he could have just kiped my routine all together. I count my blessings there.
cheers
and all my best to you and your friends.

Well Reed, my post wasn't meant to say that I was the originator of the effect (read my post once more)..

More likely to say that it is merely impossible to figure out who was the first to think of the plot, since you can have this idea in just a blink if you perform 3Fly and you are looking for "fun" variations.

I was just clearing up one thing... that his version was preceding yours, and moreover, I never said he invented it either.

Well by reading your post, it seems Mr. McClintock that this topic kinda "bothers" you a bit since your post looks a little "aggressive".

And I don't understand why you are answering me back in such a way which "seems" a little unapropriated because of its directness towards me.

Since your answer goes way beyond the topic I was dealing with, which was just pointing out an "anteriority" issue (well is that really an issue? anyway).

Don't worry, I'll consider that maybe you felt a little ill-at-ease, feeling it was necessary to answer my post (which was not a question indeed) with a slighlty different subject( but thanks for the info!)

I can easily understand that talking about this openly on the Café is not that easy, and I hope you wouldn't have beat me up for having said what I typed in my post in front of you (just kidding reed ).

I'm glad you wish all the best, my friends. (or maybe that was just irony?)

Best

J.B Dumas
"Ron jeremy 2003 official lookalike"